Updates to the rules listed.

Offline rules 1/ Recording should start upon selecting the map (i.e include the character choice, difficulty and AI/lone wolf). My runs should include the results screen too though since the tracker was added it's just personal preference but you get the point, obvious but not stated.

2/ Sticks aren't allowed (exception being sticks only category), again, obvious but needs stating.

Online rules 3/ With regards to adding mods - rephrase to mods that affect the gameplay (which would give an advantage i.e. infinity ammo). Don't have to add the brackets but make it a bit clearer why the rule is there.

4/ Recording needs to show the players names taking part. Normally I've done this at the start from the "game starting soon screen" and probably included the results screen. This ties in with nightmare which I'm not sure if it pops up on the results screen so let's say record from the "game starting soon" and must show it's nightmare by showing the rules as well at the start. This is done by pressing the select or start button I think and choosing rules. Anyone can do this not just the lobby creator. Not sure 'everyone' needs to show this but it wouldn't hurt.

If I think of anything else I'll let you know.

I'd clarify what the dedicated discord would be used for and maybe not used for. This way people know how it will be used, whether to join and how it will work with these forums. For example discord can be more for proposing ideas and brainstorming and then the final word can be posted here (your 1.0 as it were) so these forums can be clear of clutter.

Nothing else comes to mind though, you've mentioned the points I've brought up speedrunning these games but I feel with the significance of the changes and the long term impact with the aim of not repeating this again, there should be a period giving people time to let the changes sink in and have time to find issues with the changes and/or propose more suggestions.

I'd like to clarify my points for the record.

I'm not saying you or anyone has cheated in the runs that have been submitted. I said quite clearly that individuals HAVE cheated in the past (I don't even know who) even without the knowledge of others on the team and that is a fact. All it takes is one person it doesn't matter who to cheat and I've seen people outside REOB go to amazing lengths to cheat when times get competitive and it would be naive to think cheating doesn't happen. I don't know anyone in, let's say for the sake of argument, "your team" and I have no personal experience with which to form an opinion. If you personally were at the centre of cheating then your offline runs would be under the spotlight as well and unless something has gone on privately I'd assume your offline runs have been routinely verified after moderation.

I'm sorry you don't find my opinion welcoming but I'm not a mod though I have offered and this was my opinion as someone on the outside but is also affected. I don't have Hurriboy's ear, I get the same chance to talk to him and/or Wowee as anyone else who has discord. I don't know anyone outside Hurriboy, Hurricane_Kris and Gary_Danial in terms of speedrunning this game so as much as you can criticise me for lacking intimate knowledge of all of you, you can't also say I'm being biased against you and would say the same thing to anyone speedrunning. As for your team's circumstances it's good that you can offer proof to back up your runs but I am not psychic and would naturally find it odd that runs were sat on for months.

As for my privilege, I have none and if you don't believe what I say then I don't see how I can prove it. I've raised my concerns about modding in this group and have even spotted mistakes made myself and have had to notify the mods or edit them with a comment stating I made a mistake and some were as obvious as you could get like using guns in melee or David in Mark runs. I've even reported to Hurriboy upfront when 8 runs have been blanket submitted all X minutes ago which I doubt Hurriboy would have been aware of. I don't know how far you investigated but perhaps you compared which runs had 0 views and who verified them. I could have kept quiet or not cared but I felt it was worth saying because if runs were later found invalid it looks bad on the mod/s and possibly me.

And as for melee and wrenches I've been told you can use them. Why I didn't one run I don't know without more information. You've had words now with Hurriboy so I'm not going to muddy the water. This is a place to give an opinion on the rule changes and I've given mine and now I hope I've clarified it further.

I hope that we can all get along as well and mean no ill will and I hope that comes across in my responses.

I've not made my opinions public but there was talk of (as I put it as that was the impression I got) nuking the online times, and start afresh. Hurriboy has at least listened to the community and tried to find the best approach going forward acknowledging his position as mod and as part of a team.

Outside of REOB I've taken somewhat of an interest in speedrun cheating and watched how others have cheated and amazed at how people spot these cheaters. I wouldn't know where to begin with cheating and question whether I'd spot them. With categories that get more competitive, cheating can be more prevalent and harder to spot.

Back to REOB though, certain categories are becoming highly competitive and while I'm not familiar with speedrun teams in REOB, just a few names, I am aware that cheating has occurred and while not by an entire team it did benefit the team and all it can take is one person to secretly use cheats like turbo to invalidate a run even if the rest of the team isn't aware.

My initial reaction was that no community I'm aware of (though not got extensive knowledge) has nuked all the runs, there has been a grace period to remove runs, make a new category and then ultimately it's up to prove runs used cheats or provide additional proof. However, with this being coop and the mod community in REOB being as it is, it is going to be extremely hard if not impossible to do this when the role itself is voluntary. With only 1 person's POV, it is practically impossible to be sure cheating has occurred.

As for holding on to runs...well that's a double edged sword. Yes it is wrong that runs people have worked hard on are denied, however, it can also be said that runs completed say 2 years ago can be verified and then it appears on the surface that said person/team has had the WR for 2 years (basically denying anyone a chance to take them back). Submitting every run when there is obvious improvement is inefficient of course but there comes a point when runs are being sat on purely so that people can swamp the boards so runs aren't taken back quickly. You also compound the problem for mods by dumping several competitive runs in their lap and expect them to verify them when, again, cheating has been and can be used to get those extra precious seconds. It could be also unfair if say another team had new WR saved up and waited for others to take the WR away only to verify the runs and not only take them back but to make it look like they never lost it in the first place. Is it against the rules? No. Moral, No.

Am I saying runs should be submitted after so long? No, but at the very least consider your role in these events. I've sat on runs for up to 2 weeks in part because I felt there was sufficient room for improvement and there was probably plenty of runs submitted so mods had something to do. 2 weeks is one thing but 5 months? Why? I can't think of any reason other than to grandslam the board and stop anyone else taking them back until you had all of them and having the appearance you were undisputed for months when people could take them back in maybe weeks. The only time I've broken that rule is submtting any% runs offline but only because they are copies of the extension runs which were submitted within days of achieving them and it was just more efficient to submit my best extension time.

You have also said yourselves that the rules were unclear. I have had questions too and it was simply common sense to not do a run until I was certain or err on the side of caution (like using the train in BFP in melee runs). To be fair I don't think 4 POV is something that you would have asked for before trying but it was discussed that at some point all 4 POVs would be needed as a future proof measure. In my personal opinion you holding on to runs and then dumping them all at once as competitive WR didn't help. It would send a red flag to me if I were a mod and I feel this has pushed the mods (now just Hurriboy) to not only accelerate the changes he thought he'd have more time to implement but also has the difficult task of deciding if all the runs are verified or all are rejected and the rest of the community then has to take the consequences as well. If you had submitted a run or a few runs that happened close together then Hurriboy I'm sure would have had an easier time verifying the run(s) and said okay from now on new rules or hold off on more runs until I add new rules.

Ordinarily I'd say runs before any rule changes should be verified or rejected for proven cheats but Hurriboy knows his stuff and has spotted cheating where not many others would. However, if all he has to go on for off screen cheating is the tracker then he has to at some point question if I run is valid based off of the evidence he has and introduce new rules if necessary. The question then is to allow pending runs which might have some cheating to be verified or ask for more proof. I'd say probably verify unless cheating can be proven and if so the all submitted runs should be rejected depending on how difficult the cheating was to spot. Again, this doesn't help people if runs were submitted in bulk.

Not sure what else I have to say on the matter or if I've been clear in what I said but I think I'll leave it at that. I think this could have been handled better or even avoided if runs weren't backlogged and should be avoided though not enforced as a rule. The alternative is this can happen again and roles could be reversed where for example, my team can dump all the runs and then new rules are enforced.

Sorry for the long ramble.

Mods get the final say but as I understand it whoever has the quickest time submits, no need to alter times (which I think it's honourable but messy as it's based on words as you say). As long as nothing like turbo is used, I don't think the mods would ask for self penalties.

Is this all related to DVD vs HDD whereby HDD users load faster?

As there isn't an online character only category for file1, I think that's a rule which was written in when this was created but then it was discovered you can only have 1 Kevin type in a team. I'd say that's bad rule writing and needs rectifying because to do what you suggest makes essentially all the character types obsolete. Everyone would bring a Kevin type probably and then the rest would get carried.

Changing to NPC type now would probably be controversial as I've been doing easy/normal character runs and often not using the original character. Now I'm sure others could beat my times but let's say there are runs out there that people can't beat because older runs used a superior NPC? Certain runs could theoretically be cut off so you either delete those times (not just mine but as the rules stood, my runs were, and still are legit) or let them be...grandfathered? and there be an unfair playing field where I get to have a better rank because I'm use a character you can't now.

Having played enough of the categories I can't see the NPC type changing what I do. David has no item, Nathan has a green herb mix, neither of which will affect my strat at least on the early difficulties, later maybe but good players and times probably won't rely on healing. I imagine most will pick the fastest NPC with little/no dmg loss and not look back (that's how one of my melee runs nearly ended up, I went Nathan 4/5 and could have easily 5/5).

I would say the rules need rewriting sure but the categories don't need to change. A mixed team run should, in my opinion, only work for any% (to make that category valid) and have character only limited to that type (hence no online character types for file1).

1.- Shrugs* If the mods want to rectify this it's of no consequence to me I don't have an opinion only what I read there and didn't feel it was worth challenging.

2.- I don't think it's made clear but 'everyone' on the team must be a Kevin type for online runs. The rule still applies 'Kevin only'. That's why we can't have Kevin only for online in File1, because we can't have Kevin, Karl, Dustin and Raymond together. File 2 we can so online exists (I pointed this out when we first got these so was address then). Your example wouldn't be valid outside Any% because you're using different character types.

3.- Even with the RL Thantos has lagged and dodged or took the shot and lived, it's ruined runs but it can and does happen. Melee it will happen more so given the low damage and thus more hits required.

4.- You said about Sticks not making sense. Well when I read it the first time I thought an NPC run e.g. Nathan solo, would still qualify as a David run making it an NPC run and David run (which you earlier said would make no sense having the same run satisfying 2 categories. Reading again you probably meant online only but then that's really no different than any% e.g. Nathan, Rita, Bob, Linda would be no different to David, Alyssa, Mark, Cindy (it's like saying Any% with no sticks but no originals instead which you also say makes no sense to exclude so it's a bit of a contradiction as I see it). Most character runs I use NPCs anyway as they are better it's only a few like Yoko and Cindy where there is no difference/the original is better.

In Yoko's case you would be forced to choose Regan B as the rest are File 3, Stick or Yoko (Yoko Z is NPC though...).

Np Happy New Years.

1.- https://www.speedrun.com/reobf2/thread/pp3ul

2.- I don't understand the 2nd question's example. I get Yoko BFP is the same as any% but I don't get the rest. Character types are solo so a Yoko BFP would only apply for Yoko and couldn't be used for David type. Any% allows for AI which can help or hinder a run.

3.- I guess that's the nature of some runs that are online. I'd say it 'does' make sense just reliant on online conditions but then that applies to any online category. Thantos lag would affect any run not just melee.

4.- That's true though online categories would force a team to use other sticks besides Gold. Why have a BFP any% when Yoko is pretty much going to be the main pick? Some categories effectively force certain conditions hence why the extension categories remove that constraint. NPC only type would automatically conflict with character type and I refer you to your 2nd question? Why use the original types if an NPC can tick off 2 in one go?

5.- After reading several times and probably being wrong I think I understand what you mean. That's a valid point, retrospectively yes, just index the times in the full game. As for future submissions, that's up to the mods. The trouble I see is that it essentially forces a mod to do all the work and let the other mods know they've taken it on or they agree to break the full game in to chunks which defeats the purpose of submitting 1 run. After a while it will get to the point where individual runs have to be submitted separately because only 1/4 was improved upon or a full game gets submitted because it's faster but not one of the individual runs is a PB (been there, done that).

6.- Hard was discussed and was going to be added. Mods are busy so I guess one should attempt the runs anyway, and if enough voices clamor for it, it will get pushed up the priority order.

Hope that answers your questions or at the very least gives another person's view on why things are the way they are. The general truth I feel is that if you allow for too many conditions as to why a category exists it would feel like more of a hassle to administrate and manage. I didn't fully understand what you were getting at at times so I might have the wrong idea.

After I posted I had something of an idea.

Using Fothsid's tracker, anyone can see when the first person finishes. For example; Hurriboy's status on my tracker goes from Apple Inn Lobby to "Spawning" at 5.36 on my splits and well wouldn't you know Hurriboy says he finished in 5.36. Now there can be a discrepancy as with any online submission between 2 sources, Hurriboy's time might be 1 second more/less than my time but as it stands it looks a fairly accurate way of submitting a full team run and provide some legitimacy. It would be up to the mods to decide which time counts: Hurriboy's time according to me, or to Hurriboy?

We can of course submit the quickest person's pov in the description (i.e. Hurriboy) but the actual submitted run would be mine.

Hey.

When it comes to full game online submissions, what is acceptable for the mods?

To give context, 4 of us have done all 5 runs in one go but the person wit the best time varies. We can't submit 5 different videos obviously but I'm in possession of all 5 runs.

Shall I just compile all the runs together in to one video and submit? Not to assume people cheat but if this becomes more of a thing in future it would be good to establish or at least clarify the submission process.

I don't really see a practical solution and there's always a chance that someone could compile their best times and submit that but I thought I'd throw the idea out here first before submitting.

No weapon was one of the joke ones since every map has a boss except DT which has a horde of zombies. One person would have to basically sit it out while the rest did the work. No damage could be doable though DT would probably screw teams every time.

I think the special items category could be fun to do, that's probably my top choice I'd submit. Completion could work but I think it would have too many problems as one person would largely need to do all the work while others assist with bosses or trigger teamwide cutscenes etc.

As I understood it you can't have character type (i.e. Kevin) only in File1, only in File2.

Depends how funny or sadist you want to be regarding categories though. Could have;

All special items for all or one person No damage for all or one person No weapon (....rofl) Ablib spam (or no ablib at all depending on which is harder to do :P) Completion % This one would be a bit interesting to implement but probably impossible as someone could have a lower completion but a shorter time.

I'd be for having a Steam any% category. I'm aiming for speedrun all the main titles and 5 will probably happen sooner rather than later.

When I started learning FF8 Any% a month or two ago I also sought out these answers and found them elsewhere on this site but having it explained above is good to have. The thread's headline would probably be best to edit to include RTA/SS and Z/Q+Z or "Questions on run terminology.".

I just hit a new pb of 8:02:52 on Windows10 on 11th September so if you happen to be around when I'm streaming FF8 maybe I can answer any questions (or perhaps the chat) live. Sub 8hr is doable but it's going to be touch and go. For the sake of it could anyone shed light on the difference playing on Windows10 makes compared to other OS? I recall someone in my chat, but a known FF8 runner, that Windows10 is capped at 30 fps whereas other OS aren't.

Maybe have an FAQ thread with all these questions would be helpful instead.

SS/RTA OS frame rate Z vs Z+Q

No worries I just checked now. Maybe I'll get the first run and be WR holder...at least until someone mops the floor with me.

Hi.

I'm relatively new to speedrunning and have a big interest in FF. I don't see a category for FF3 Steam so I'm wondering if this would come under Steam% or would I need to request a new category?

Thanks in advance.