France
SupporterWell, this is the rules for our particular board, it doesn't have to be a world encompassing measure, and people as just as justified to define stuff the way they want, or even create completely different leaderboards elsewhere. We can't be tyrants even if we wanted to So there are no fundamental reason why we can't do as we please, which here, would be to be consistent It's also not like we make our times incompatible with those outside the src community, especially so if we apply those changes I mentioned earlier
And I definitely get what you mean by the ambiguity part. But unfortunately, the situation is already very confusing as it is. What you think is the old "world record" 1:42 is actually a run that uses the clock trick exploit, which some players might feel is illegitimate (which is fair, as we're "cheating" the clock and skipping portions of the stage). Also they're playing with a controller while I did so on keyboard. To me both play differently enough that I consider both of our times simply not being compatible. And some people, again, might not find much value in runs not playing on the official means of inputs (much as emulators aren't always appreciated as their real hardware counterpart, depending on the games. As an anecdote, when I had uploaded my 1:47 on youtube, it's made its tour on the server. While it definitely was of a shock to people, a couple weren't exactly enticed with the fact it got achieved on emulator).
As you can see, the real "world record" of Balue's Tower can very well be a ton of things. Which is why the term should probably not be excessively employed anyways (also because the term lost a some of its actual worth. It's easier than ever to get one, due to the popularization of speedrunning). First place is a much simpler and safer term in general
What would you consider is the legit, pristine world record setting ? I'd personally say, original game played on original console and controller, that neither uses any clock tricks nor pauses. Following this, I think the record would still be detained by this person . NOT the 1:42 time
So yeah...
Oh, the IL idea goes without saying. You just illustrated it perfectly. It's honestly a barely explored area. I'm all for adding it, but we're gonna need to determine how to time them first before doing anything else
The time can "easily" be improved to a sub 40. Which I would've already gotten if it wasn't for a mental block on the hardest trick... Relax though, I'm not gonna allow myself to spend any amount of time near the one I have to get my any% time. Actually if I like can't beat it within 30 minutes it'll probably be the end of it to me cause I'm just so much busy
Edit : Did a short save-state attempt, it's possible to get sub 2 min (using the second clock trick, though... not entirely sure if possible without)
Sure, one sec
Done. There might be a day where we add normal vision ILs, and when the day comes we might have to change the way the Extra vision is set up like, following the way the timed extras of EoD are managed. Switching to RTA timing for instance, but keeping the in-game time as additional board info Might also make it so you're allowed to pause again
Be sure to send something decently good there otherwise I'll come in and show you how it's done :evil_grin:
After some more discussion in the community server, it has been decided that we change the beginning point of the run to something that is more practical and friendly for re-timing runs.
As follow, the new text :
"
- Timing starts upon the first frame of the fade-down process that happens to the save screen soon after creating a new game. "
We had already started re-timing a lot of runs before that point, so hopefully this teaches us a lesson in not pulling such major changes without prooftesting them first.
We will again return to re-timing runs. The boards obviously remain open for new submissions. This should be the last post.
Update : all DCT runs are now re-timed !
After some more discussion in the community server, it has been decided that we change the beginning point of the run to something that is more practical and friendly for re-timing runs.
As follow, the new text :
"
- Timing starts upon the first frame of the fade-down process that happens to the save screen soon after creating a new game. "
We had already started re-timing a lot of runs before that point, so hopefully this teaches us a lesson in not pulling such major changes without prooftesting them first.
We will again return to re-timing runs. The boards obviously remain open for new submissions. This should be the last post.
Update : all EoD runs are now re-timed !
Well looks like we're not gonna be able to use any of the black screens timing points that comes after the fade-in as the beginning of the run.
Timing from the perfectly black frame is just completely inconsistent, as the frame itself doesn't occur the same way in both its front end and back end, between different footage of the game on Youtube, or even within our own runs ! It might all be based on setups or emulators but nothing is known about the subject.
Furthermore, runs such as BC98's make it unusable since their runs are unusually darker and get pitch black before the fade-out process even ends.
We'll very likely have to resort to other timing methods. Maybe something like, timing at the first frame of the fade-down, or at a point that's much after the fade-down, like the cutscene, or even beyond idk.
Even though there are no problematic videos for EoD (that I could find), there are no reasons why those issues wouldn't affect it in the exact same way. That should probably ask for a change, even though we've re-timed a bunch of runs for it already... but that's nothing more than our fault for not doing proper research beforehand.
(Copied) Changes made, last message about this probably.
The "show post-game cutscene" probably won't affect previous runs that didn't show it.
Now to work on re-timing the runs
Changes made, last message about this probably.
The "show post-game cutscene" probably won't affect previous runs that didn't show it.
Now to work on re-timing the runs
How's that ?
"
-
Timing starts upon the first frame of the screen being completely black, which ensues right after the fade-down of the save select screen.
-
Timing ends on final hit on Garlen. Time does not stop if you die. "
[Edit : Changes were made, though I'm not sure if we actually need to worry about dying during or after the last hit. Might adding another line (will be discussed in the server)]
Well, enough time has passed. Most of the discussion happened in the Discord, and before this thread actually even made, so...
Either way, the voices we've heard (on the server) made it clear, we will accept this new timing change. Any new run starting from now on, will abide by this new timing method. I'll soon get to work on the new rules, and then the mod team will go on about potentially retiming all 28 runs.
How's this ?
"
-
Timing starts upon the first frame of the screen being completely black, which appears right after the fade-down of the save select screen.
-
Timing ends with the final hit on Bagoo. Time does not stop if you die. "
[EDIT : Looks to be on the good path. Still some nitty gritty left. Changed the word "ensues" to "appears". Planning on adding another line (discussed in the server)]
It will statistically offset most runs by a second, as this new timing change would roughly remove 0.85 s off of them. But that's not an issue.
At least until we make our own.
The retroachievements site has developed an entry for this particular game, and along it are leaderboards for each "bosses" of the game (minus Garlen for some reason) and the three of the five extras. So if you want to have fun running against other players, this will be it. I assume they get their time via the the in-game timer. There are no equivalent to this for EoD. You will need RetroArch and if you actually want to register your times there, but you can probably play along just fine
(formerly named "any% definition change", but this was heavily misleading)
This is a forum thread meant to discuss a new timing definition for the any% of both games. Specifically, the beginning point. Why is that, you might ask ?
Well, to find out, please make sure to check the EoD mirror thread : https://www.speedrun.com/klonoaeod/thread/lbyto/1#qkfei It is preferred that you respond in that thread instead.
https://www.speedrun.com/klonoaeod/thread/lbyto
[Edit] Choice decision has been announced in the other thread.
(formerly named "any% definition change", but this was heavily misleading)
This is a forum thread meant to discuss a new timing definition for the any% of both games. Specifically, the beginning point. Why is that, you might ask ?
Right now, the rules says that "Timing starts on file select". So, upon the button press. As natural as it is for runners to use, it poses a severe issue when wanting to accurately time runs to the frame. Indeed, it is very difficult to determine when that button is pressed exactly, since the game doesn't visually represent that input. Indeed, nothing actually happens until roughly 0.1 second, time where the game plays a sound effect, and 0.1 second after, after the fade-down to black begins.
If it was only that, it would be a little annoying but ultimately fine, as would simply be able to determine where the input happens based on the audio or visual part. But it couldn't be further from the truth. Because both those time estimations are in reality random in length. They can either be normal, or straight up 4 frames longer, and in-between, all at 60 fps. This is an absolutely unreliable timing method, and is the main reason why it currently is being subject to change. But also, to make the run much easier to time for everyone.
The newly developed method, favored by the current runners and that works for both games, is timing from the first frame of the black screen after the save select screen has faded down. It is easy for runners to split to, reviewers to time from, and compatible with autosplitters.
Such a change will ask for a potential re-timing of every single runs (27 in total), due to the slight time difference with the current timing method. Because of this, it is mandatory that we ask the community about a change of this scale.
Now that things are explained, this is you moment for you to vote and express your thought on which is better :
- Keeping the current timing method for the beginning point of any%
- Using the newly-developed timing method
This thread has been duplicated in the DCT game board, but it is preferred that you respond here.
We will call it off once enough people have responded in the following days.
Link to the DCT mirror thread https://www.speedrun.com/klonoadct/thread/trkp6
Hi. I have noticed a small issue when interacting with the stats screen of leaderboards. It happens when viewing the IL history of any games (works with even SM64).
While the ILs history, curves, times and info are correct, whenever you click on any of the dots to access their corresponding submissions, that will instead bring you to runs of the very first category listed in the "Full-game" section. . Not the IL submission itself.
Another thing that would also be handy regarding the stats panel, is a way to see the dots clearly, especially when they tend to agglomerate. Maybe some built in zoom function.
Unrelated to this thread, but I found out yesterday that an issue I had posted about a month ago has yet to see a fix : https://www.speedrun.com/the_site/thread/a5bn3 I'm only just reporting on it again, I don't know what actually goes around fixing such a thing. Maybe it would require an unreasonable site overhaul. I'm not entirely enticed with this move, but I couldn't hold myself not to report again on a clearly still present oversight. I guess I simply want some sort of closure on it... but anyways
This doesn't exactly fit, but I'd rather avoid creating threads for every little things. I have added a line to regulate any submissions of full-game runs that are done without having created a save-file due to no Memory Cards being plugged in.
This has the effect of removing the "Save complete" panel off the creation process of the save-file, meaning we cannot time the run with the original beginning point anymore.
Thankfully, there exist another way to time runs that works whether you have access to that panel or not. It's related to the music fading out. So, I've decided that such runs have to be timed from the first frame the screen turns black and doesn't update, after exiting the option screen. I assume it's roughly around here that the music starts fading down, but as I have no means to tell this, there might be frame inacuracies between both run types.
Not much we can do about that, unless if we were to change the beginning point timing definition to when the players gets control of Klonoa. For which, we would need to do a vote to decide.
Either way, this Memory Cart rule oversight has now been taken care of. For information, as far as we know it, not plugging the Memory Cart doesn't affect the run, as for instance the saving prompts met after every stage will still appear despite this.
[Edit : thread previously known as "Rule clarification for full-game runs".]
A line in the rules has now been changed, to explicitely state that you must play the run through a newly created save-file for the run to count.
Besides for clarity sake, this is mainly due to ensure all runs come out the same way. We recently found out that FestivalTemple's two top runs has started the game via an already created file, which messes with the definition of the run since you never encounter the "Save complete" panel.
We'll exceptionnaly turn an eye to these runs (any of the already existing ones that have this problem, which I'm not even sure they are) since first : they were both from an era where the rules might have been different or simple unclear on this. And second : they had been accepted back then either way, and the lost time had been accounted for in their final time. But this won't be the case for any of the new runs. [Done, after only 4 days of waiting]
Just as Lunatea's Veil, here's a thread dedicated to those very old Balue's Tower records.
1:42.03 (with clock abuse) 2007
1:45.51 (without clock abuse) well that one isn't really old, but it's still noteworthy
I remember the second one being overall a tiny extra bit faster than the execution of the 1:42.03, but that doesn't mean it's much harder to beat back because of the new strats and game knowledge
Downloaded the second one as well.
Edit : Well I downloaded the Nico one after learning how to. When it'll go down, I'll upload mine
Title says it all. This is just a thread to quickly find these very old (2007 !) videos again.
Chamber o' Fun 1:01.55 &
Chamber o' Horror 1:43.55 (couldn't find a youtube upload)
I also personally downloaded the Fun video.
Edit : Well I downloaded the Nico one after learning how to. When it'll go down, I'll upload mine
Yea that sounds less harmful of a change. I'll just quickly add in a new variable and work out the rules (Done)
