About developing the leaderboard
2 years ago

[Edit 17 april 2023 : thread renamed from "Banning the usage of pausing for extra vision running" to "About developing the leaderboard". This will now become the main thread for leaderboard discussion pertaining to Klonoa : Door to Phantomile.]

Since Balue's Tower is using the in-game time as its main timing method, it's completely possible though unlikely that people use the pause function of the game in order to either take an undeserved break, or use it to make hard tricks easier or to spend time perfecting their movement without any penalties on their overall times. This would go against the spirit of the challenge. It's similar to the Minecraft pausing dilemma. And I don't think anybody will mind not being able to pause during ILs attempts.

As such, I currently stand in favor of its ban, but I want to make sure we're in agreement before I push anything through.

Edited by the author 11 months ago
tortellino5 and Nazzareno like this

I agree.

Super moderatoramoser
He/Him, She/Her, They/Them
2 years ago

I have no strong opinion so banning it is fine with me.

The only thing that might change my mind is if a really cool pause strat gets discovered that turns it into an entirely different run that wouldn't otherwise be possible (e.g. something at least as interesting as the death abuse, which also exploits the stopping of the IGT), but this seems extremely unlikely given that there aren't even any known TAS strats that aren't already used in the current RTA record, and no pause strats are known to exist in other categories either.

Balneor likes this

Yea, the clock death abuse trick's also a thing.

It's definitely of a concern. Some IL times on the internet intentionally avoid using for instance. As things are now though, most top runs use it, so I doubt we can just remove it off. Unless we feel very bold. And besides, it's not a super harmful trick, as pausing can be.

... Well actually, should we make a category without that trick ? That would fix everything

(While this happens I'm gonna update the rules with this change)

Edited by the author 2 years ago
Super moderatoramoser
He/Him, She/Her, They/Them
2 years ago

Maybe a filter/column for whether the death abuse is used would make more sense than a separate category, only because there are already relatively few runs on the leaderboard and splitting it further might make it seem even smaller.


Yea that sounds less harmful of a change. I'll just quickly add in a new variable and work out the rules (Done)

Edited by the author 2 years ago

[After four days of no activity, I made the change. I went and introduced a "Hz" variable, and filled all runs with it]


Before getting started with the contents of my post, I want to point out that the name of this thread has been changed, and its function repurposed to now serve as the main place for leaderboard discussion of the game.

This is a self statement, but I think it wasn’t a wise decision to have created many threads over every single medium to big changes. Hopefully this should help keep the amount of threads down to a limit. As for the existing smaller threads… we can’t delete them, nor are able to merge them. Will have to live with them.

Alright. With this message, I am proposing the implementation of a new information variable to all runs. This information variable, akin to the game version variable, or disk speed variable, would better help describe each runs. But, not only that, as you will see.

This new information is about the Hz run component, practically equivalent to running speed of the game. All versions of the game run at 60Hz, full speed, except PAL, which is at 5/6 speed.

But, this isn’t actually entirely true. There are a couple submissions who are allegedly played on the PAL version, and yet, the game speed is clearly 60 Hz. https://www.speedrun.com/klonoa1/run/zpqgo48y PSTV also apparently allows to play PAL games at 60 Hz. https://www.speedrun.com/klonoa1/run/y8qp071y And finally, there is a bug that has been known to arise with the USA version of the game when purchasing the game off PSN, where the game can be slowed down to 50 Hz (with sometimes, the whole audio pitched down). I do sadly not have footage of this. As a placeholder, take Klonoa’s catchphrase or some gameplay excerpt of the game, lower the pitch, and there you have it.

So, the game variable cannot help us determine alone if a run is 60 Hz and 50 Hz.

But why would this variable be created in the first place ? Well, there would be a couple reasons.

First of all, it would allow to make such runs easier to find. Between the runs that are in reality 60 Hz, and the PAL submissions whose footage are lost and we’re met with the impossibility of finding out about their Hz, and their very small number in general, it’s particularly annoying to look for them.

Second, it would assist 50 Hz players in finding and comparing runs of the kind much more easily, most notably via the filter option. While 50 Hz gameplay is official and fully acceptable to be played on, quite naturally, RTA wise, it suffers a massive time disadvantage compared to 60 Hz gameplay. Meaning the best runs of which usually sit in the middle.

And third, it would enable us to create a Hz distinction for Balue’s Tower ILs. As indeed, 50 Hz gameplay affect the extra timer, so even though you’re playing slower and have slightly more leeway with timing, the timer will not take this slowness into account. Therefore, without any distinction of some kind, fundamentally incomparable times will coexist and prove to be misleading and inconvenient.

Now, about how to add this. As you read, I first mentioned creating a new run variable. And this implies one thing. For the Balue’s Tower leaderboard, it implies that it will not prevent a 50 Hz run to hold first place over a 60 Hz run. There will be a way to filter runs so you only want to see one of them, and besides, you will know how to identify run and not blindly compare the two. But, there is no hard separation, and I’m aware this may annoy some.

Of course, there are other alternative to this design. With what src allows us to do.

One of them would consist of simply adding sub-categories depending on your Hz. For every category, full-game run and IL. But while this would work fair and square, I feel it would take too much space, and would make that split look very important, when in reality it wouldn’t even affect 1% of submissions, and these sub-categories would most likely be empty all the time. (This is how it would look like : https://imgur.com/a/Ku6ySep)

The other one would be to only establish a Hz sub-category for the extra, and add a Hz information variable anywhere else. Simple in theory, unfortunately less convenient than it sounds in src practice. A variable may either affect all full-game runs, all ILs runs, or a single one of either group. But never more than one. Which means… we would need a duplicate variable for every single IL (because surely enough, one day they will be added)… except Balue’s Tower. From the user point of view, it would also look perfect. But the price would be paid in terms of loss of leaderboard long term structure stability. If leaderboard customization was more expressive, we would be able to do this with two or three variables. But right now, you need like a dozen more. Not fun.

And thus, The simplest, easiest and most efficient method is the “all Hz run information variable everywhere” approach. And it’s downsides are small and quite frankly very manageable.

I will add this new variable in a couple days, and fill every single submissions with it, if nothing transpires since then. Also don't worry, it's easy.

Unrelated to the topic of this post, but I’d like to point out one thing about the PAL version. It must be brought to light that, outside Hz, and in-game different language displays, it is currently impossible to distinguish between USA version and PAL version gameplay. A detection method would be very much appreciated.

Edited by the author 11 months ago
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