Texas, USAI've been thinking about writing some chrome extensions that use the API, but I don't know of any other site that uses them. It really is quite an in depth API for a site as new as this one is. Kudos to the developers.
These are some of my favorite platformers (I only have a run in one of them because I'm super new here also, I just wanted to share my favorites) Welcome to the site!
PC https://www.speedrun.com/Super_Solvers_Gizmos_and_Gadgets https://www.speedrun.com/srbr https://www.speedrun.com/Limbo https://www.speedrun.com/Braid https://www.speedrun.com/run/y233669m
Bonus: GBA https://www.speedrun.com/Rhino_Rumble
Yeah man, these popups keep telling me that there are local hotties in my area, but I guess they all hide behind the bushes or something when I go outside. It's like they can tell I'm a mod, ya know? But hey, someone's gotta do it, lol.
Interesting. That sounds kinda awesome, actually. Honestly, if someone can compete with that kind of handicap, I feel like it should be allowed. Sounds a bit like Oscar Pistorius: too good for the paralympics, so they allowed him to compete in the real deal.
What game is this for? I'd be interested in taking a look at it.
Hey Rev, good to meet you! What kind of games are you into?
I figured it out, actually. The program isn't really set up for macs, so I kinda have to jump through hoops. It requires going into the audio settings and splitting the audio output into two ports: one for headphones and one that OBS can pick up. It's kind of a hassle to set up (especially because once it's set up, you can't change the volume level), but once it's done, it's easy to turn on and off.
Yeah, I agree with both of you. I think maybe using the phrase "tool-assisted" isn't the right way to go here since it has a negative connotation. I don't mean to say that one type is inferior, just that runs using these kinds of things should be separated from those that don't.
The D-pad issue was one I came across in a forum for one of the runs to "The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past". I don't remember the specifics, but the game had unusual behavior when up and down was hit at the same time.
The reason I made this thread is because there seems to be an increase lately in people caring about who is the best rather than their own personal achievement. Naturally, this will pressure people into using borderline strategies to gain an edge, and I think it is important to make that line clear to minimize these kinds of arguments and keep the playing field fair for everyone.
and if you're using a mac, the best program is Llanfair. (Livesplit only works with Windows)
https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/5yj6o3/livesplit_mac/
I think that's one of the advantages of having the first submitter become the mod of a game; it allows a lot of games to be supervised by people who (theoretically) should know their stuff, but it also leaves it open to abuse. As for the rules, I just posted a thread about the definition of "tool-assisted" that I scraped together from various sites and people I contacted in those communities. It's not exactly a "global ruleset", but I think it's a good start.
What operating system / timing program are you using?
EDIT: Go hawks!
If you have an opinion on this, please let me know.
The general consensus on this seems to be that a run is considered “tool assisted” if it cannot be done with the physical console, the original game, and a regulation controller (one that came bundled with the system).
If a player has access to information that cannot be accessed in the original console, if the technology intended to mimic the original hardware or software is enhanced in any way, or if a player interacts with a game in any manner other than through gameplay, the run is considered “tool assisted” and should be placed in a separate category from those that are not tool assisted.
Common examples of this are the use of hex editors to edit input stream segments, using a precise timer to count individual frames, using save states to undo unwanted actions, and using an autofire or turbo-fire controller that did not come originally bundled with the console. This should be distinguished from players that use tools that do not affect the game itself, such as a notebook to keep track of menus or a calculator to keep track of experience points. If the item a player is using to help him play the game does not interfere with the game itself, it is ¤not¤ considered tool-assisted.
The use of third-party controllers is generally allowed as long as only features present on a standard controller are used. If a run uses a controller input that is not possible with the standard controller, such as hitting both up and down on a SNES D-pad at the same time, it is considered tool-assisted.
The use of a turbo-fire function will almost always be considered tool-assisted. The only exception to this rule is for systems such as TurboGrafx-16 that featured turbo-fire controllers in the official release. If you feel that it is a gray area for a certain console or game, consider why the use a turbo controller is preferred over a regular controller. If it gives an unfair advantage over players using a standard controller, use of a turbo-fire controller is considered tool-assisted.
A run that takes advantage of additional hardware or software is considered tool-assisted if it alters game parameters in a fashion that would give that player an unfair advantage over those using the original console, including the enhancement of audio or visual output. However, the use of the use of hardware that doesn’t alter gameplay from the original, such as modchips or boot disks commonly used to play imported games or officially released add-ons, such as the PS2 HDD, are not considered tool-assisted.
A run where game settings are changed during the run is ¤not¤ considered tool-assisted if it can be done using the commands accessible through the game or in-game menus. The exception to this rule is the use of cheat codes. Runs that use cheat codes that give an advantage over those that don’t use the code are considered tool-assisted. However, runs that use cheat codes that do not give the player an advantage, such as a code that simply changes the character’s outfit, is not considered tool-assisted. It should be noted that even cosmetic changes can create shorter load times if the sprite used requires less memory than the default sprite. In this case, a run that uses this code would be considered “tool-assisted”, even though the change only appears cosmetic, because it gives the player an advantage over those that didn’t use the code.
A run that uses glitches is ¤not¤ considered tool-assisted if it can be reliably performed on the original console with a standard controller. A glitch that can be reliably performed on an emulator, but not on the original console ¤is¤ considered tool-assisted. In this situation, the emulator itself is the tool being used, because it is functioning is a way that the original console does not, creating an unfair advantage for those using the emulator over those using the original console.
The dropdown for Desktop Audio Device doesn't seem to have any options except "Disabled"
Somehow, that response managed to be both succinct ¤and¤ punchy. Impressive.
Anyway, think I have a better understanding of a general mindset of how things work around here. I don't think there ever really ¤was¤ an argument. (Does there have to be an argument?) It felt more like a conversation to me. Give a guy a day off and a pot of coffee, and he takes over some poor user's thread. Heh.
I thought Usain Bolt was the perfect example for describing how knowing that someone can perform better with better tools doesn't necessarily make trying to do it yourself any less enjoyable.
This thread generated three pages because my opinion is not the only opinion. That is one of the problems this site currently has; there are no site-wide rules or regulations for what can be submitted and what can't. If you look at the first page of this thread, the argument is made that tool assisted runs shouldn't be included because they aren't the traditional style of running. Then the question becomes are there certain kinds of speedruns that should be excluded from "speedrun.com"? The problem is that there is not a universally agreed upon definition of what is and what is not allowed in a submission. It seems to me that each subgroup thinks their own rules are the only rules because they are the ones that best apply to that particular sub group.
The not stepping on toes bit makes sense, but can't you make the same argument for SDA? If SDA exists, why should we have player made runs here? If it were my site, I'd form a partnership with tasvideos and have links to their stuff so the benefits become mutual. (but it's not my site, I know..)
"The drive in speedrunning is putting in the practice and effort to make yourself be a better player in your own rights."
- This is a personal opinion. ¤Your¤ drive may be to make yourself better (at playing the game), but someone else's drive might be to learn how an ambiguous problem can be approached with the given variables. For instance (I don't know how it works with sports games) but if you are only given the variables for the player's location on the court, how do you calculate the amount of time to hold down the 'shoot' button and what angle to shoot at? It's not so simple. It's not always about hitting buttons at the right time. As another example, let's say you're writing a bot for a game in which a given number of objects appear on the screen. You are given the locations of these objects and all you have to do is collect the objects and return to the starting point. How do you calculate the shortest route? Where do you even begin? Do you see how some people can find this kind of thing to also be challenging yourself to be a better programmer?
"Semantics, the thread". Nice.
"theoretically you can achieve perfection" - I have a couple of issues with this statement.
- Can't you say the same thing of running any game in any manner? Theoretically, you can play a perfect game without tools, but does that make it any less fun to do? Do people stop trying to beat a record, even if the person who made the run feels like he did everything perfectly?
- The phrase "theoretically you can achieve perfection" may or may not be true, but it doesn't really mean anything. Not really. I deal with this problem all the time in the real world. Someone will come up to me with a block of code and say "The run-time complexity is blah, which is better than the original." So I'll say, "That's fine, I accept that, but can you do better?", and that's the stumbling block for most people. Sure, you might have the record, but how do you know it can't be improved? Can you prove it can't be beaten? It's much harder to do than you might think, and easy to say if you don't think to hard about it, but it's a fundamental part of the programming paradigm that many people don't understand.
Sure, anyone can ¤make¤ a TAS run, just as anyone can do a normal run, but that doesn't mean it will be any good.
"If everyone simply did TAS, we'd probably have a ton of "dead" games by the end of 2017."
- Usain Bolt currently holds the WR for 100m, but does that mean that schools around the world stop holding competitions because that time cannot be beaten? Do people stop playing basketball because there are pro teams better than they ever care to be? No, of course not. TAS runs are in a separate category for people with different interests. That is all I am trying to say.
"You're just trying to give (speedrunning) meaning where there isn't any."
- Yes. Yes, I am. That is the whole purpose of this thread, I think.
"What you are either ignoring or missing is that beating a game as fast as possible doesn't mean you can circumvent rules. Rules are in place in order to keep competition up among various other things. Part of being competitive is knowing the rules of the competition you're entering."
- How can you circumvent rules when there aren't any? That is why this became an issue in the first place. There is not a defined set of core "rules", only things that different communities assume is universal.
"...if someone didn't have the decency or common sense to check with a moderator of a game..."
- What if the game has no moderator? If the person who submitted the first video is made the moderator, why would that person think he is breaking any rules? He ¤made¤ the rules.
"Save states to abuse RNG have been known forever, nothing ingenious about it"
- Yeah, true, but not all tool assisted runs do this. I mean, how do you even ¤find¤ frame perfect glitches, let alone build a program to actually ¤perform¤ them? It takes skill.
"Because...he thought he could get away with it"
- I'm sure there are people who do that and there always will be, but he wasn't even trying to hide it. There's a difference.
Addendum: Patience > Skill ¤However¤ (Patience + Skill) > Patience There is no reason that you can't beat a tool user at their own game if you truly are better at it and don't mind using their own tactics against them.
