Congrats!

It makes me laugh this board/game ever received any traction. xD

I since, from this last reply added $1000000 as a category, which - was destroyed.

But thank you! I did originally create this board as a meme run to see a bunch of runners route a game most never ran before, but over time it was cool to see legitimate strategies develop (and of course, I would have and did create actual categories people could enjoy the game with.)

Just to answer here as I was contacted privately:

I'm completely neutral.

First, I'm not the moderator that setup this board, so this is my own personal opinion.

Second, if I setup the board I would have never added "Buster Only" even for fun back then, and just kept it Any%, as now it creates an awkward precedent in the future. I would actually be inclined to remove "Buster Only" and just keep "Any%" as the only category because this game, despite being based on a popular cartoon franchise, absolutely does not get speedrunners submitting runs to it. I can check, and in the entire 4(?) years that hirexen modded me, I've verified like 6 runs - and he has verified 69. That's about 7 runs a year.

Adding even more categories in my opinion is just bloat to a board that doesn't get runs to begin with.

But, I'm also neutral in the sense "Buster Only" exists.

Since it does, it doesn't make sense "Furball Only" and "Pluckie Only" and "Dizzy Only" shouldn't exist, too, but, even then "Furball Only" and "Pluckie Only" are basically identical to the Any% run, and, probably why they were never added. Any% at optimized levels, are effectively the same categories as "Furball Only" and "Pluckie Only" with very small differences.

"Buster Only" changes some strats, but again in my opinion shouldn't have ever been added as this board should have just really had "Any%" as the only category.

In order of preference of what I would personally do:

• Remove "Buster Only" and just keep Any%. This is what I would do if I created the board.

Second choice:

• Add all the other characters as their own separate categories but move all the categories to miscellaneous so "Any%" is the main board. Until there's a large numbers of runners, I don't think the other categories should be with "Any%" because they're never going to be competitive and just going to serve as bloat. We can see this already with "Buster Only" only having like 4 runs in 7 years. Pluckie/Furball aren't strong enough to be much different than "Any%" because that's what Any% is - both of them together, and Dizzy alone sucks as a character to play through.

I changed it!

I know in the past it wasn't immediate, so at some point you'll see the new one.

Thanks for submitting that. :)

Thank you! I'll change it.

SRC changing this and forcing this dimension was one of the worst changes probably ever on the site.

Yeah, that's ok!

As long as the controller has no advantages or functions that can't be replicated on real controller (example - turbo, L+R inputs) then controller doesn't matter.

Awesome! Congrats Pika!

But then this entire board becomes nearly 100% invalidated. xD

You'll have a situation where in the future if people want to run demo mode, they're forced into waiting 16s for an time that will ultimately be noncompetitive compared to the best future RNG times.

I feel future people will complain about having to wait as well, but in an entirely different context than present us do ("Why do we need to wait for demo mode to start, when RNG runs don't have to?") opposed to now where it's just "Why are we even waiting at all?" (provided the boards aren't separated for fairness by that point).

And if in the future, RNG god run happens, and the boards are separated, and people complain about wanting to skip the 16s, and the decision is made to remove it so it's more on par with equalizing the start times to RNG, then again it just all circles back to what I've been trying to write now in how restricting it currently doesn't make any sense, present or in the future.

I think that's all I'll sum it up! I feel I can't add anything more without constantly repeating myself, and I'm really not trying to fight anyone or change anyone's minds here. I think in conclusion:

In the present -> it doesn't make any sense to restrict this, provided the boards remain the same and the manipulation isn't factored into current timing. For it to make sense to restrict this, the 16s should be added to everyone's run and be part of the run, since then it makes sense for the moderators to have this stance.

In the future -> it will create issues if the boards never change or factor in the manipulation, because you're either going to have demo mode people complaining about 16s they can't skip while RNG people can, or, no one running demo mode anymore anyway because running against RNG became the most competitive thing to do.

If running demo mode becomes a completely dead approach to this game in the future, whether that's because it's undesirable to wait 16s or running against RNG becomes the norm again, then I dunno, I don't see why in the present it again needs to be restricted as it is currently when it's not part of official SRC timing.

I think the very fact end game that will be the end result makes it an issue for sure, but this is where I would have agree to disagree. :) Since boards were never separated, timing was never adjusted and this manipulation happens before timing even starts, and, one day, won't even be relevant once people start grinding for RNG and better times demo mode can provide, it just creates a nonsensical decision to me to forbid bypassing it in the present.

As you said, it's not an issue now, but one day once running RNG becomes the norm again, restricting everyone now who doesn't in not allowing them to start the run immediately doesn't make any sense with the future in mind. If RNG becomes normalized in the future and people still choose to run demo mode, will they still be forced to wait the 16 seconds then? Again, strictly in context related to this specific game, it makes no sense, both present or in the future.

Yeah, it's again not ideal since boards were never separated earlier when this was found.

As far as I understand from RNG changing per frame in this game, it would be entirely possible to get a RNG run where you get all the benefits of the demo mode RNG, and the best spaceship kill non-demo can provide. It's also possible there's better patterns RNG can provide. I'm not sure what else is exactly known (in the sense demo mode is fastest or not.) So once a run like that happens, and it will one day, everyone who ran demo mode will have a permanently "uncompetitive" time in the sense if you continued to run demo mode, you will never be able to go under the best RNG times.

There is a loooooooooot of time save left, but not enough where one day all that demo mode time save + the same RNG for D/Fat Cat + the RNG ship boss won't be faster.

And that's still the underlying problem at the end of the day with all this.

Yeah, that would be a funny side effect honestly. xD

But, I do think that would be the best way to solve this problem, as one day, some day, if the Chip & Dale community continues to push this game, and they will, this is a conversation that will come up again, but in a different context. Someone at some point will have a RNG run that is not possible to be beaten with the current demo mode RNG (provided nothing else is found there).

What do you do then?

Do you separate RNG/non-RNG runs to the boards can remain competitive in each category, or does everyone's demo mode time just stay on the same board knowing if you choose to run demo mode, it will never be as competitive against running RNG?

At some point it will be non-competitive to run demo mode, which when the demo mode lock was found, probably wasn't taken into consideration as it wasn't known how low it could go. Ironically, with your last record, Tecate, we're starting to see the maximum baseline being reached before there's literally no more time saves left before the next thing to do is go back to running against RNG.

Which circles me back anyway and I know I'm done soon as I just keep repeating myself. If one day demo mode will no longer be competitive, I don't really see why it makes sense if it's not currently part of timing to force waiting at all to everyone who currently runs it.

I think, the problem with the romhack route to me is it caps out and has the same problem as demo mode currently. If you wanna go the romhack route, you may as well make the romhack contain:

• Fastest B ship.
• Fastest patterns on all enemies and bosses, honestly.
• Ideal flowers for co-op bonus stages.

And just give "best" RNG like other hacks exist like for Friday the 13th or TMNT1 (in always having the best hole 1 RNG, or always starting with the proper RNG.) And there, I also don't agree with it, since the inclusion of such a hack that's better than the current demo mode offering ruins the prospects of running for the best RNG one day.

I promise I'll shut up. :D

I think the dumbest part about this conversation is no one is actually wrong. There's arguments on both sides that are extremely valid and if weighed, I think it's literally a 50% / 50% thing.

If I could control time, day 1 once the manipulation was found, I would have separated the boards and also changed the timing on demo mode to be included in the manipulation. I think, for this to have made the most sense today (to also be in line with the moderation's opinions), the categories should have been immediately separated and timing should have included the manipulation from power on.

It would also incentivize runners running against RNG again not losing 16 seconds for waiting for the manipulation.

So, the fact again RNG will save time one day is problem number 1.

The fact this board never received separation is also extremely problematic and problem number 2. Before the manipulation was found, this board all ran against RNG. You can see this in Footdive's old 9:59 where from over 8 years ago, he died on the climb in Zone 0, and immediately started the run again after a reset. Kavoc from 6 years ago also messed up in Zone 0 and reset, then immediately ran again. So we had at least 2-3 years or more of RNG runs before the manipulation was found, and now we have about 5 years of manipulated runs all mixed together on the same board. One day RNG runs will be faster than the best demo mode run and literally unbeatable - do you separate the categories then?

Almost all SRC/NES boards become separated once a RNG manipulation is found that removes RNG, which now has created an awkward precedent in the future where the only legitimate timesave comes from a run where will be no manipulation. So again, this brings me to my main problem: why does this make sense?

In the future, the only timesave left is again going back to resetting and hoping for good RNG, which eliminates waiting on the demo mode anyway. We've come full circle, and I cannot think of another game where the manipulation is before the timer starts and overall, non-manipulated runs will one day be faster than the manipulated runs, and RNG runs will one day be faster than the current limit of manipulated runs. It's literally just Chip & Dale, and because no board separation ever existed, we've all been forced to wait on demo mode as it was the standard, where one day it won't be.

That day still isn't today, but again treating this run like it fits into the cookie cutter of every other NES game "because that's how other NES games do it" is an extremely failed approach and mentality. Chip & Dale is extremely unique in how the route developed over time. Unless something is found where you can match the RNG ship in demo mode, the only time save left at this point is actually going back to running against RNG, which, in that point, even if you wanted to start every run off a save state in demo mode, literally, as I tried to point out in my last reply offers no competitive advantage.

So the fact it's continued to be forced when it isn't part of RTA timing is nonsense to me.

Ideal solutions:

• Separate the boards between RNG and non-RNG runs.
• If that can't happen or won't happen, manually change timing to include demo mode much like the Disney Afternoon Collection does/Japanese RTA timing from console on to off (such as in Super Mario RPG and how they time that game). Everyone suddenly loses 16 seconds on this board, but at that point the demo mode is part of official timing and makes sense to keep in and it makes sense from the moderator perspective to force runners to not start the run from a savestate.
• If no one wants that, and I doubt anyone does, allow people to skip the demo mode screen and start from a save state because this manipulation is not part of RTA timing and pre-run.

As I said earlier, I really don't care, but trying to treat this game like every other NES game doesn't make sense. It's just how the route developed, but again, why Chip & Dale is extremely different and why I have a problem with not being allowed to start from a savestate in this particular game.

I think it just has to do with the board in general. @EmilSinkler

I think, if you want to quite simply put it, I don't care about waiting at the end of the day and despite complaining, still reset and wait like everyone else. Is it annoying? Yes. Do I think anything would change if you allowed people to start off a savestate? Absolutely not. It's just Chip & Dale is an extremely unique run in how it developed over time and lack of decisions here created an awkward precedent. I'll try to explain it one last time thoroughly and why I think it's a problem.

First of all, let me preface this by saying I still agree with hirexen in general. Savestates should never be used to start a run, period. Anything that sucks to deal with in your run, like a long introduction or autoscroller you can't get out of, too bad. That's part of speedrunning and sometimes you just have to suck it up and accept it. I agree with everyone who thinks you shouldn't load a savesate, as, I truly and sincerely agree, in every other game, I have that mentality, but I don't have this mentality with only this specific game.

Chip & Dale falls into an extremely unique run where a) the main way to run the game (demo mode) starts before you do anything in the run and timing itself. The entire manipulation isn't something you have to do once you started the run, it has no barring on RTA timing. 99% of other NES games if there's a manipulation for something, you do it while the timer is already started (e.g - early hammer manipulation in SMB3 for example), so treating it as "part of the run" and forcing it to be "part of time" when time hasn't even started yet in my opinion is wrong.

The fact the main way to be competitive in this game is to let the demo mode activate that isn't part of timing is again unlike any other NES game I can think of. The only other NES game I can think of this happening is Flintstones: Surprise at Dinosaur Peak. Runners there at some point figured out, after a game over, if you started a run immediately again it manipulated some enemies and bosses in the next attempt. So, what the moderators did what was very logical: They allowed runners to start from a savestate after a game over before the game and time began, otherwise you would have to play the game for about a minute each time each attempt and then they separated the categories (manipulated vs non-manipulated runs.) This makes sense to me - both the category separation and not forcing runners to wait a minute each time to run that category if you wanted to manipulate the RNG, because the manipulation in theory can be setup before a timer also ever has to be run. It's all pre-run and very similar to Chip & Dale where to manipulate the game, the timer hasn't started yet.

https://www.speedrun.com/the_flintstones_the_surprise_at_dinosaur_peak

Applying the reverse logic to Chip & Dale is where it becomes extremely nonsensical to me.

Running against RNG will be faster one day. That's the first problem. So it's reverse as it is in other games, like Goof Troop, once you remove the RNG, you have faster overall times by runners. Right now, runners run against no RNG in demo mode, but the RNG route and the spaceship will likely be the last timesave anyone ever runs against this game for a better run demo mode can provide. If I recall, the god spaceship saves about 1.2s or so. It's a pattern you only get running against RNG and it's faster than the demo mode spaceship. When we ran co-op, Kat and I had splits that were faster in every segment by the end than the old third place run we were trying to beat except in Zone B. No matter how much we golded Zone B and continued to gold Zone B, we would always lose time, and that's because they had the RNG spaceship kill back then in Blechy and Cyghfer's old third place co-op run. It'll be the same in solo runs one day that run against RNG for the god ship. This is particularly a solo problem as well, as in co-op, demo mode will likely not be beaten by RNG, since the main problem with running against RNG in co-op is the fact enemies will be different, boss patterns will be different, but the critical thing is flowers, stars and 1 ups will be different. Co-op's current route relies heavily on flowers always being the same (which demo mode locks in bonus stages) which is not a problem you'll ever experience running in solo. So, we have an incredibly awkward situation where demo mode will eventually plateau and not offer any more timesave. 1/2.

It's funny as I honestly agree with you, it's just illogical when it comes to Chip & Dale.

I want(ed) to learn Mega Man Zero 2 on GBA. There's a 60 second "intro" stage followed by nearly 6 minutes of unskippable cutscenes, and there, it's basically, RIP. Even though that really sucks, much more than this, I have the same mentality. It's part of the game and you just deal with it.

Here, and it will be my final reply, this mentality makes absolutely no sense.

Loading a savestate to skip the demo mode:

• Does not change the run at all (compared to intentionally waiting for demo mode).
• Does not offer any competitive advantage than intentionally waiting 16s for demo mode.
• Does not change timing of the run or remove any part of the run used in RTA timing on SRC. You would still start from the title screen.
• Would allow runners to attempt more attempts in a single session.
• Would stop runners from feeling burned out over constant Zone 0 resets and waiting.
• Would raise the overall competitive ceiling considering more attempts over time would be completed/attempted.
• Would make the game more desirable to run to people that might otherwise dislike having to wait.

Forcing people to wait for demo mode:

• ? INTEGRITY ?? ???

There's again literally no reason this shouldn't be a thing.

Especially because end game if you have foresight and imagine the future when no one runs demo mode anymore trying for spaceship RNG, forcing this stance on everyone else will all be for naught.

Nah, that's all extremely hypothetical and no one is going to make a hack that removes all the bonus games and the cutscene in level G, so I think that's honestly weak reasoning.

Just focusing on what's present ->

Runners wait a really long time between resets. Zone 0 optimized is extremely reset heavy. If you reset within the first 16-20 seconds (on the first pipe climb) you literally have to wait an equal amount of time to start an attempt again. This is annoying.

Why is forcing this on runners good?

As I wrote, I/we wasted ~30 hours waiting between resets.

There's literally no difference in loading a savestate to start attempts to skip the beginning opposed to waiting 16 seconds to let the game enter demo mode. Again, literally none. I think this is the most important part because, if it somehow changed something else, I would be of the opinion you shouldn't use a savestate to start the run, but it's literally the same outcome. The only difference is there is no senseless and pointless waiting between attempts.

It just goes against some old boy's club mentality people are afraid to challenge in 2023.

And lastly, "unfair to people" on real carts might be true, but I refuse to believe a huge majority don't run on Everdrives or emulators with savestates/rewind fetures to begin with. The amount of people on a NES setup that would have only real carts and no other way of practicing would be completely eclipsed by the people who do run off an Everdrive and have the capacity to skip the 16 seconds at the beginning by loading a savestate.

Catering to the 0.5% this negatively affects doesn't make any sense either.

[Edit]: To future proof this on the SRC boards would be simple, too. Just setup a variable to show who used demo mode in a run and allow people who do so, to load a savestate to get into runs quicker. If people on real carts can't load a savestate, then they can wait out the demo mode as everyone is doing right now. Everdrive/emulator users can load a savestate to get into the run quicker, and if they have RNG that doesn't match the well known and documented demo mode -> run gets rejected. Problem solved for all, since in the distant future when the only time save that's left is the god B ship pattern, no one will be waiting/loading save states to get into demo mode, so this will all be redundant one day.

Such a solid run! GG man!

I would perpetually vote to get rid of the waiting. They do this in so many other games, and honestly it's highly annoying it's present in this game. I'm 100% for loading a save state getting rid of having to wait 16 seconds each time, especially having run this both solo and now co-op.

In solo, I have 221/3590 attempts. 3590 - 3369 (nice) * 16 is 53,904 seconds. That's 898 minutes, or about 14 hours I've been forced to wait between resets. Co-op with @Kat_kunoichi we had 218 runs/3854 which means we waited even longer than 14 hours as well between resets.

This is the only game I've run where this is a thing. I've basically waited 30~ hours between resets.

I am an "old" runner of this game and don't think it's unfair to get rid of this wait upon reseting.

I also honestly don't think it needs a separate romhack; however, not for just demo mode and nothing else. Loading from a savestate to skip the title is exactly the same as demo mode which would be exactly the same as a romhack that just loads demo mode. I would feel that's unfair, after having put in the time, having to re-run to get the same time on a separate hack.

Especially because the hack one day will be invalidated anyway.

The only time save left looking into the future is running against non-demo mode and getting the god B ship kill, anyway, so at that point when runners really want to challenge themselves in the future, they're going to skip ironically waiting anyway upon reset and just reset and go each time hoping for the good space ship pattern.

Great run Daniel! GG!