FranceI have a few concerns about how co-op runs can be deleted by any player involved in them.
Very recently in a leaderboard that I moderate (PAYDAY 2), a user deleted an IL WR run he was part of without the consent of his other team mates, so that the new WR would be another slower run he did with another team. As the user in question also happened to be a mod for the game, I took the responsibility of (at least temporarily) demoting him from his role. However, as current site features stand, he was completely in his right to remove that run on the behalf of everybody else.
Which brings me to my point: what's protecting co-op runs from griefing, if team members start petty arguments years later and a runner wants to delete runs for revenge? Shouldn't there be some sort of majority system instead?
I have no doubt that your run was legitimate, but as Awake explained the video you posted does not allow for proper verification because of your webcam. Circumstancial evidence like your livestream can't be accepted if you don't explicitely link it in your submission. Feel free to repost submissions containing the whole stream (make sure you set it up so that Twitch doesn't delete the VOD after a while, or export it) and the timecode of the runs.
By the way, you don't necessarily have to show other players' mods in your runs. Of course it would be significantly more transparent if everyone did, but that's not convenient for runners to show it after a run (easily forgettable), and it's possible to evade the mod list and tweaking mods so that they don't display there.
Hello everyone,
Contractor% solo and co-op categories have now been officially removed from the leaderboards. On the behalf of the moderation team, I'd like to apologize for the time it took to come to that final decision and to apply it. It was a tough decision, but unfortunately the only possible outcome to Payday 2's support starting again.
There are two main reasons that led us to the removal of contractor runs:
- Obviously, with new maps being added, some subcategories became and may have become obsolete in the future. This is why Locke% and all contractors had temporarily been pulled out prior to this post already.
- New updates also bring new bug fixes. The original plan for contractor% was for it to be run on the same latest/final version of the game, to have every player stand equal and avoid having to resort to downpatching. However Overkill fixed some glitches that were used in formerly approved runs - in particular PBSH - and we could not reasonably delete those runs (as we'd have to reset boards each update to remain coherent), neither add versioning to that category like in ILs (since downpatching would be required and that would defeat the whole purpose of the category).
Please note that this decision also applies to console runs. PS4 and Xbox One support still is going "strong" with a new update having been released no later than yesterday. And while PS3, Xbox 360 and Nintendo Switch support were officially halted, there never were any active runners to play on those platforms including in ILs.
I hope you're not too disappointed in that decision. In any case, remember that speedrunning is done for fun first and foremost, and that nothing prevents you from doing contractor runs for the sake of challenging yourself. SRC only aggregates categories, but ultimately those who create them are the players themselves.
Have all a nice day.
This rule exists for the sake of having exhaustive leaderboards, since Botless technically is a subcategory of Any% (like 2/3/4-player are to Shuffle in co-op boards). SRC has some limitations, especially in IL categories, and we're forced to duplicate runs to bypass them. For example, if a botless WR happened to be the overall WR as well but was only submitted in Botless, then it wouldn't be displayed on the front page as it only shows runs from the default category (Any%, and Shuffle for co-op).
So theoretically, you should submit duplicates of your botless runs in any%, and mods should be doing it themselves otherwise. But usually it's forgotten or ignored, and honestly it isn't that much of a big deal (unless it's WR in both categories as explained above). We just have to clean the boards every once in a while.
Base chance for escape on Transport: Park is 15%, but it's indeed possible that some RNG Modifier settings force it to 100%. As for slow-mo on the escape zone, it's just something I personally do to celebrate. But as you said, since it also slows down the escape timer, it's useless.
Anyway, back on topic. There definitely is an escape at the end of the WR run, and escape IGT is supposed to be added to your run total going by rule 4. However, by convention, we have always considered that escapes on single-day heists could effectively be skipped, since those are individual level runs and the category objective (beating the single-day map) has already been completed by the time you get the escape. Basically, if you don't have to beat the escape to complete your category goal (or subgoal in the case of contractor and full-game runs), you can count it out. Otherwise if it's required in order to progress, all time spent in that escape adds up to your final time because of the single segment rule, which in the end only affects multi-day heists.
Rules definitely need to clarify that point, so I'll be looking into editing them. And just to prove that I'm not making up all of this, here are a couple other single-day old runs that have been accepted despite having an escape: https://www.speedrun.com/pd2/run/8y8p9odz https://www.speedrun.com/pd2/run/m3oo8ggm
I'm locking this for a few hours before it escalates further, please avoid name calling.
Even with RNG Modifier enabled, you can't do everything first try, it's just impossible. The advantages it gives over players without it (and I agree they aren't unsignificant, which is once again why runs with and without the mod don't obsolete each other) are the following:
- anticipating most, but not all, random events in a way that you can prepare stuff in advance more easily. Without the mod, you have to guess if you want to stay competitive, and restart if you are unlucky, but that's not specific to RNG Modifier. If a vanilla WR used the best RNG events, you'd be forced to get them as well unless you find a better route. Payday 2 isn't the type of games where execution matters a lot to save time (in fact the discovery of PBSH actually makes micromanagement of your movement more relevant). All of this leads to point 2.
- since RNG can be more or less fixed, you can train more efficiently to shave seconds off in your route, as you don't have to restart hundreds of times before having a new try. Basically, what I'm trying to explain is that RNG Modifier is merely a convenience. It's correlated to the fact that runs using it are generally faster, but it's not the direct cause. Runners have better times not because they're using RNG Modifier, but because they can train more thanks to it thus having more chances to get a run with few mistakes.
It's a bit unrelated but regarding slow-motion, I don't entirely disagree that it's not super entertaining. It's mostly an exploit to how leaderboards use IGT rather than real time. That said, that's why coop runners are encouraged to provide multiple POVs to their submission (as long as the host's is one of them to have accurate timers). And the reason why it wasn't banned is because it's a high risk high reward strategy, as it occupies at least 2 players if you want it to be consistent, and you are effectively wasting med and ammo bags, risking custody, and only the remaining players can complete objectives and fend off the assault. A few years ago I found a setup that allowed hosts to enable infinite slow-motion in any map. As opposed to down slowmo, this glitch was banned in leaderboards because it required no skill and saved you an insane amount of time at no risk. See the pattern? You may argue that in that case, RNG Modifier should be banned for the same reason, but the keyword here is skill. RNG Modifier removes needing luck, not needing skill.
I mean, a community vote was held and an overwhelming majority agreed to allow the use of RNG Modifier in IL runs. If I remember correctly, it even was supposed to be allowed in full-game categories like Crime Spree going purely by the poll results but I veto'd it. I'm myself usually against the use of mods in speedrunning, in official categories at least, to prevent accessibility problems or easing runs and such. Some Payday 2 community members even memed me hard because of that, that's where the joke of "black gloves are cheats that make you go faster" originates from.
That said, in the case of ILs, the Speedrunning mod is more a QoL feature more than anything. Instant restart and more precise timer are no-brainers, and even RNG Modifier is closer to QoL than cheat in that specific case. Indeed IL runs are short enough that top-players will realistically be restarting 99% of the time until they get a competitive setup. RNG Modifier allows to remove those forced restarts to make the speedrunning experience significantly more fun, both for the runners and the viewers. SRC has always been about accessibility (see the genesis of the site in opposition to Speed Demo Archives' strict rules and verification process), and I personally think that change was an improvement in that department. We need to attract new runners if we don't want our small speedrun community to die. Overall, despite being the main category here, IL runs are more about trying to get closer and closer to theoretical times than competitive racing.
Meanwhile, since they are so long, full-game categories reward endurance and improvising. That's why RNG Modifier isn't and never will be allowed there, as it would wreck those core aspects. Sure, someday someone insanely lucky might break those categories by having the best RNG possible on each time, but honestly good and bad luck usually balances out throughout such runs. These are the only categories where racing and comparing yourself to other runners is relevant.
If you are so strongly opposed against other runners' use of the mod, you can either run full-game categories for the reason I explained above (avoid contractor categories at the moment however, due to Overkill's shenanigans), simply ignore RNG modified runs and filter them out using SRC's tools (we specifically set up that variable so that runs with and without the mod don't obsolete each other). Or if you are more extreme, you can simply delete all your runs from the site like a former runner in the same situation as you unfortunately did, and seek out other leaderboards that cater to your mindset. But overall, speedrunning is something you should primarily do for fun, and calling out and making fun of other runners like you did in your post just make you appear childish and petty.
If nobody wants to add anything, I'll be locking this thread in about 24 hours.
Just to warn you, with Payday 2 support starting again, we will probably be forced to temporarily remove contractor categories or at least part of them, including the full game one. Really sorry about that, I hope you didn't do a run already.
Federal Inventory actually was for a long time (maybe still is) the unfortunate #1 reason for rejecting runs, as players weren't uninstalling WolfHud properly.
It's harsh as obviously this specific mod is harmless, but we can't just start whitelisting a couple of those. Otherwise we'd soon be caught in the pitfall of endless debates about whether a mod is a cheat or not, something that's up to everyone's own appreciation. Since allowing all override mods is impossible as some might be cheats, then the only solution is banning them all. And yes, very simple override mods can potentially be cheats. To use the example of Framing Frame D3, imagine if the 5 required items were retextured to bright pink, or if the beeping sound of the computer room had its volume increased or was simply changed to a very noticeable noise.
Loading times are supposed to be excluded from the final RTA time. That includes "black screen" and "tooltip" load screens. Either runners pause the timer manually during those, either moderators substract that time when verifying the run. Alternatively, there's a mostly functional LiveSplit autosplitter made by PiTau in the community Discord server. I'll be adding the link to the Resources tab on SRC since we apparently forgot to do so before.
Now to properly answer your question, current state of things is that all time spent in preplanning by the game host (who's the one to record) still counts towards final time. Reasoning is that menuing is still part of the run and you should be able to plan your strategy in an efficient manner. That's even more true in Crime Spree where selecting a map and buying Gage boosts is essential. Of course, that doesn't account for client loading and connecting times which can vary depending on player regions, connections, HDD vs SSD, etc. There's not much we can do at the moment unfortunately, unless we start adding arbitrary or very situational rules based on last action in preplanning, who's connecting and similar stuff. That's a can of worms I'd personally wouldn't want to open. That said I can bring the subject up for discussion with other mods.
In any case, once again, IGT takes precedence over RTA so it's a non-issue until two runs happen to be so close to each other that connection time loss becomes significant enough for RTA needing to be further refined.
Whole game runs are bound to be extremely long and exhausting (as long as some RPG 100% runs), so it's fair to want to take a break once in a while, considering that ultimately IGT takes precedence over real time. That said, since multi-segment/spliced runs are not allowed - and that's not negotiable - you'd have to keep recording the game during the break and let the timer run.
If that still is an issue, consider first running contractor categories or Crime Spree. Those usually last about an hour or two so it's easier to schedule the run with your team mates. I'm going to sound dramatic but ultimately the all missions category is meant to be a marathon-type of speedrun and you should be mentally and physically prepared before attempting one without losing time on breaks.
Hello MrDHC,
Could you please elaborate on what basis is your claim founded? Not that I don't believe you - especially not for such a heavily modded game - but even after reviewing each run, I still don't notice anything suspicious. Since this is a very serious accusation, I really don't want to jump the gun when it comes to possible run removals and sanctions.
Thanks in advance.
Really interesting bug, I guess the second timer isn't updated at the same frame as the hundredths one. The killhouse timer is very glitchy in general, usually there are discrepancies between it and the PB time.
What did the PB timer display afterwards? 8;88 as it's supposed to be if it was a 9,00 time or did it update to match the glitch 8;00 time? EDIT: I'm an idiot, it's the first option; watched the beginning of the vid. So yeah, consider it a 9;00 time.
Yeah, you shouldn't be using any mod whatsoever, otherwise your run becomes invalid. When you want to speedrun the game, remove them from your game files, disabling them in-game isn't enough. This rule is harsh but it has too in order to avoid creating double standards and more differences between PC and console versions.
Surely most runners including myself have forgotten at least once to remove their mods during a speedrun session. Just hope that doesn't happen to you when you are on a PB pace...
Hey,
I see what your point is. There actually used to be a Glitchless subcategory at some point, but the Henchmen update with interaction speed boosts was so much a deal breaker that we eventually changed it to Botless, since it's prevalent in submitted runs and affects all maps and not just a select few. Adding both subcategories at the same time would be impossible to maintain as the number of categories would double, with some empty ones. You still can filter runs using the Glitch used? variable, which in my opinion is a fair compromise.
Also, keep in mind that those leaderboards are more of a legacy thing and there might be some sort of wipe when support for the game ends.
