Illinois, USAI know there's not many runners for this game so far (not that I really expect this to change =p), but I think it'd be a good idea to get a solid timing system in place, seeing as how I timed things a bit differently, which caused some confusion recently.
So, both of the other runners for this game timed their runs to the last input, but I timed my runs up to when the chapter status screen appears (my initial plan for chapter 5 and the epilogue is to stop timing at the credits, since those chapters don't have such screens, if I remember right).
Normally I agree with last input timing, but the reason I timed my run as I did is because of chapter 1 having unskippable dialogue all throughout, hence there's more importance to what choices / dialogue options you choose. So it made more sense to me to include the final scenes in the timing as well (I will say that if final input is what we go with, then using the pie instead of the dagger at the end of chapter 1 is the fastest option). Stopping at the chapter status screen is also easy to determine, whereas final input could be a bit more ambiguous, especially since later chapters will end on a "press button to skip" input which could be harder to determine upon video review.
I'm OK with whatever the community ends up deciding, and ultimately, the different methods would really only affect chapter 1 (since the pie is fastest input-wise, but has a slower cutscene than the dagger, with no way to skip the cutscene). Still, I'd like to hear other opinions on this matter as well.
I'm thinking of adding a Time Attack category for both Ys I & II, but before I do, I'm curious if (1) there's enough interest. And (2) if we should make it full runs only, or make sub-categories for each of the boss times. The reason I wonder about point 2 is because unlike other Ys games, you can't individually select to try a certain boss; you either go through the whole loop, or you don't. But, the games still track your overall best times for each boss, but that may only be if you save and quit the times afterward (not sure of that).
So, lately, there's been a bit of a discussion over at SDA about a good way to define the glitched category for this game, and whether or not they think such a run would be a good fit for their site. Regardless of what they decide, I'd like to also discuss this with the people who actually run / will run the game. I know I'm probably the only person to bother with these glitches at present, but still, I'd rather the community makes some kind of consensus, rather than just me alone.
Due to the nature of the Time Attack glitches (which are only possible in the Complete version, to my knowledge), it's possible to beat the story mode of the game just through Time Attack, by failing to exit the Darm fight at a certain point (you should be returned to the title screen, but aren't). This has been rejected by SDA for being much too similar to a standard Time Attack run.
It is also possible to start a new game, make your way to the first boss, and then by doing the glitch there (dying in TA, then quickloading a file), let the boss loop continue until Darm, then fail to return to the title screen as before (otherwise, it'll just show you the boss times after defeating Darm). This, too, was rejected by SDA for being to similar to a standard TA run, although it'd give the category a better sense of legitimacy, since you do actually select "New Game" whereas the previous suggestion never does.
The category they're debating about whether or not to accept is: allow the glitch to be used, but you must reach the final boss normally. This would allow the other applications of the glitch to be used (all items early, some events skipped, etc.), but would ensure the run still has enough story elements to be distinguishable from TA. While this proposal does abuse the boss loop out of necessity to get into the Shrine from Gelaldy (all items too early = Gorto doesn't let you in through the front door), it allows a better showcasing of the game being broken without it being too boring. Getting all items after Gelaldy (as the current glitched run I have posted does) avoids the boss loop abuse, but results in the first 3 areas being played pretty much as intended, but if all items are gotten earlier, it allows for skips in the Ice Ridge and Moat of Burnedbless.
So, my suggestion is to BAN the category where you select Time Attack, abuse the glitch at Darm, then end the run. The reason being that it's too similar to standard Time Attack, and it doesn't select "New Game" or a difficulty either.
Second, I'd like to propose that we ALLOW the category where you select "New Game", abuse the glitches, but reach Darm from the area you're intended to. Somewhat arbitrary, yes, but it makes for the most interesting category where this glitch is concerned. There is one possible hiccup: there's a glitch (which I'll try to record later) that allows you to activate the Dalles fight from the area you enter the Ice Ridge, in place of the other cutscene with Dalles when first entering the area (possible even in normal story mode). However, it is impossible to hit Dalles, or to exit to the Shrine, but if it was, the category would become even more arbitrary, though we could opt to ban the megawarp.
Finally, I'm unsure what to do about the other category, the one where you select "New Game", reach the first boss, activate the boss loop, and then abuse the glitch at Darm to put the game back in story mode. Personally, I don't think I'd run this category, but I wouldn't be completely opposed to ALLOWING it should other people decide to submit for it, albeit as a separate one from the other that I'm proposing we allow.
Thoughts?
Since this game was recently divided into sub-categories by difficulty, I want to point out a couple quirks with the Eternal version.
As far as I know, Eternal only has 2 difficulties, Easy and Normal; Hard and Nightmare were added to later releases. However, the damage formulas for Eternal's Easy most closely resembles later versions' Normal difficulty, and Eternal's Normal difficulty most closely resembles later versions' Hard difficulty.
It's not an exact comparison to later versions, but in general, it lines up with the damage enemies deal / take (though there are exceptions, such as some bosses, like Vagullion, dealing less damage in Eternal).
Therefore, I'm requesting that people that submit runs for Eternal submit for Normal and Hard difficulties respectively, rather than Easy and Normal.
Pretty sure I mentioned this to a couple of you before, but here's a small collection of Yunica clips (and a minor one for Toal) I found some time back, but for some reason never got around to recording until tonight:
Not sure if they're already known or not, or if they're just too much of a pain to pull off (they certainly are for me, but I never understood the clipping thing too well to begin with), but hopefully someone can find a way to make use of them. Preferably also with a better setup as well, as what I did doesn't always work (especially for the last door shown).
The first one probably saves the most time, but then again, I don't know just how essential the nearby Emerald is to the overall route. The second one pretty much only saves time if you can do it right away, as the door key is right next to the Mask of Eyes, which is still needed, to my knowledge.
Not sure if similar clipping is possible in other areas. Personally, I haven't had success with it, but then again, I generally suck at it (although, I want to say I once clipped through a boss door with Yunica - unfortunately, I can't remember which one, or if it even happened at all). I do think part of the reason is due to the Wailing Blue doorframes, as it's easy to stay underneath them, whereas the other doorframes tend to push you out. Pretty certain at least part of the reason this works is because Yunica's bouncing off something in a precise manner, but I'm not 100% certain of that.
So, I did a couple test runs of Japanese PC Chronicles the past couple days. I figured this version would be able to beat Complete relatively easily, since it has cancel to speed up text, and the Silver Sword cutscene can be skipped. However, it's looking like the times are comparable to the Steam version, despite these things. This is even taking into consideration the recent Minea Plains clips (a free 20-30 seconds, depending on how much trouble it gives), but there's smaller stuff like waiting to move before bosses. Granted, I am pretty rusty, but it's still feeling like Complete is the faster version time-wise.
Just to clarify, what settings should I be using in the config, if that matters any? Here's mine right now:
I know one of the options messes with the FPS (60 or so compared to 75?), but I did a quick test just outside Minea, and confirmed that it doesn't affect the time any (shouldn't, at least).
Found this stuff a short while ago. I've tested this on the recent PC versions (Eternal, Complete, Chronicles/+); I've yet to test the PSP versions, but it should also work there.
There's more info in the video description, but the first clip can save potentially up to ~8s on the way to the Golden Pedestal, and up to ~20s when getting the Silver Sword. The second clip saves only ~1.5 - 2s to reach the Mine that way if coming from Zepik (early Silver Sword route), so it's probably best not to attempt it for a speedrun. The last clip seems completely useless, but thought I'd show it off anyway.
Anyone else know of other spots with similar transition points that actually carry over your position? I know of a couple places in the SFC version of Ys V, but I don't recall them being of any use.
Found a couple minor skips playing chapter 1, so thought I'd share them.
First one I wouldn't really call a skip, but when dodging the spike bed in the beginning of the game, it's fairly simple to avoid the second alcove altogether, just by going up as soon as the bed passes below you. You need to be a little careful not to accidentally hit the bed, but it's pretty lenient.
The second thing is right after, tiptoeing around the bone piles. You can skip hopping into the second bed, simply by making steady progress upwards immediately after exiting the first bed, and then making a dash for the ladder once the second bed drops from the ceiling. The window for this is somewhat tight, but still fairly easy to pull off.
This next one I don't understand, but when messing with the contraption to feed the dragon to get the Mirror, you can sometimes ring the bell prematurely. I think normally you need to wait for the meat to hit the ground (same with switching the meat to the other side), but there have been instances where I've rung it prematurely, immediately after switching the meat around (as I said, there's normally a wait). Unfortunately, most of the time it's too early for the cutscene where the dragon eats the meat to play, but I've had that happen a couple times. Absolutely no clue why this happens, and if it's timing related, I've no idea when to do it so it actually saves time.
Immediately after grabbing the Mirror, when you're running across the collapsing bed bridge, if you fall into the hole just before the last jump (basically, the middle tile just before the jump - it kinda looks like the holes form an upside-down "T"), instead of dying the game still sends you to the next area, saving a couple seconds. The window for this seems to be pretty tight, so it's high risk / low reward.
Well, that's all I remember. Anyone else have anything to share?
I know there's not many runners for this game yet, but we might later run into a similar issue about where to stop timing. So, hopefully we can nip this in the bud now. =D
I stop my timing as soon as the last hit connects with Darm. However, there's a fair bit of dialogue afterwards, though the player doesn't have any control during these scenes, aside from clearing the text. I'm not quite sure what other runners do, but I can see a scenario in which someone decides to stop time as soon as the credits begin.
I feel this issue is a little bit different from Ys I, given that there's quite a bit more text to clear at the end of this game. So, if we do factor in all that dialogue, the time between versions could possibly vary even more than it may already due to different languages. This isn't really so much an issue with Ys I, as it's only a couple pieces of text to clear, and so the "hold cancel to speed up text" feature is a rather negligible benefit in that instance. But here, it could create a time imbalance at a point where it really shouldn't, since the run is basically over by that point.
I'm noticing some slight inconsistency for when runners choose to stop time for this game. So, I'd like to try and reach a consensus on when exactly people think that point should be. The last gameplay action one needs to take to start the ending sequence is to use the Monocle to properly read Book Fact, but there's still the book text, as well as another text box to manually clear after that.
My own run (which was submitted on my behalf a while back) appears to have been timed up until the button press to actually read the book, but doesn't seem to factor in clearing the text afterwards. Other runners appear to stop timing after clearing all the text. Still others appear to wait until the moment the screen changes to where the text autoscrolls with a visual of Darm Tower / Ys in the background.
I realize this probably doesn't make all that big of a difference with the speedrunning community being relatively small and somewhat fractured for this game (due to version differences and all), but we should at least try and come up with a consistent end point.
These are some minor timesavers I've found myself back when I did my run of the game. Some of them are present in that run, some aren't. Just mentioning these because I saw the now current fastest times don't seem to make use of them, and there's really no reason not to.
The first one is the route through the desert. After grabbing the boot, the oasis straight left should be used instead of the one straight down. Doing so pushes the amount of screens you can survive without drinking to the limit, but the oasis straight left of the boot is also one screen closer to the bandits' camp. This is important, because using that one means you don't need to drink from the jug at the bandits' camp, which is a lengthier animation anyway.
The route through the forest to reach the witch's house the fastest should be: right, left, up. Ideally, the witch will initially appear right in front of her house (I think it's RNG, though). Having her appear there makes it so her spell doesn't travel very far to hit you (at least when approaching from the bottom), and it's also a short distance to walk to hand her the lamp. However, if she should appear on the screen to the right of the forest entrance, it's faster to ignore her and walk left (since she'll be too far off the optimal path), and hand her the lamp on the screen below her house. And if she should initially appear just below her house, it's fine to hand her the lamp right away, just that timewise it's not the ideal scenario.
The last one is something I just recently found, but when Cassima saves you from the catacombs, it's faster by like ~8s (ScummVM timing, if that should differ from DosBox) to lose her right away by going down twice, then memorizing the path she would take. Just to clarify, the path is: down, down, up, left, right, up, right, up, right, left, right, left, up, left, up, right, door.
Anyone have anything else they want to add?
