console only category needed
3 years ago
London, England

Hi everyone,

I’ll be dropping a video down on a YouTube tonight showing the difference between my PB on pal console vs Wavy Commanders WR on Emulator (Zangief).

It will demonstrate the necessity for a separate category due to the increased speed of the Emulator version over the console.

Most other Speedrun games have a separate category for emulator vs console so could we please implement this for SF2Turbo?

Regards Doc

Tokyo, Japan


It's not because of emulation. I think it's the difference between NTSC 60Mhz and PAL 50Mhz.

The NTSC version runs about 1.2 times faster than the PAL version.

I think there needs to be some detailed categorization when it comes to games with a lot of players, but I think it's a very sensitive issue to determine how strictly to aggregate. I guess we'll just have to leave it up to the moderators to decide for now.

Sorry for the comments that don't lead to a solution.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Doc and The-Wavy-Commander like this

Looking forward to seeing it Doc, I'll keep an eye for the release.

I agree with Hitshee, emulators and the ntsc console would both be locked to 30fps wouldn't they?

A lot of games don't allow PAL on the leaderboards specifically due to the lower framerate and thus affecting the IGT. There are some games (Syphon Filter 2) In which the PAL is actually quicker than the NTSC, but this is the exception rather than the rule and in those instances, the PAL and NTSC runs are on the same board.

If a split does happen, would it be console, emu then region? It wouldn't seem practical to fragment an already thin board but I can understand the delicacy of the situation.

Hitshee_Spingear and Doc like this
London, England

The video is just a side by side comparison of game times tbh. Nothing amazing 😂

If PAL can’t have its own category then I guess I will have to go NTSC. Shame to abandon my PAL console though as I’ve had it for 28 years.

It would have been nice to have an individual PAL category so we don’t have to abandon the system altogether.

The only real answer to allow all types of games to be played would be to use game time as the deciding time. Add up all round times (time remaining) and the the highest time wins. This is also something I demonstrate in the video. I know it’s not been done before but it would be a very including way of doing things.

Just an idea.


I know what you mean, but would just using round time not impact the accuracy due to losing milliseconds per round?

I know milliseconds aren't used now, but for something like this to be implemented I imagine it may be necessary.

Doc and Hitshee_Spingear like this
Tokyo, Japan

I think it's a very unique idea. However.

My concern is that HF loses a lot of meaning, but I think one of the things that makes HF so appealing is the variable TurboSpeed.

If you're just comparing in-game counts to in-game counts, then turning up TurboSpeed will only make it harder and less meaningful.

As you may have noticed, the slower the speed, the easier it is to play. For example, you'll make fewer input mistakes and it will be easier to check your jumps and hits.

By increasing your speed, you can increase your execution speed, even though the risk of mistakes increases.

For example, if you use the DOWN R UP L Y B X A command input with the 2P controller, TurboSpeed can be unlocked up to 10 Stars and raised to 6 Stars, there is a possibility that you can get the same execution speed as NTSC even in PAL environment. (USAVersion Down R Up L Y B )

I believe Speed Select is currently up to the player, but what do you think?

If it's not allowed. Given the nature of speed running and competition, I think it's reasonable to treat the two as separate.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Habble and Doc like this
London, England

The lack of milliseconds I think would only be an issue if one day people had the exact same time, Which honestly I think is highly unlikely. However I do concede the point that it’s not impossible for two people to have the exact same time. However the best way to resolve this would be that whoever had the time first would remain No1.

I sensible option would be as Hitshee suggested for moderators to allow pal players to put the stars up to 6 of that speed was equal to NTSC speed. I would need to run a video comparison to see if 6 stars is equal to nTSC and if it is then we have a workable solution :)


Speedrunners have been aquiring specific versions of games to have the fastest experience since forever; I understand how that could put someone off from a competitive standpoint but it's something typically rooted into every community as the expectation as long as that version is official hardware (or equal to/slower than official in the case of emulation).

Sometimes you'll find PAL ports of games where it's been optimised to be equal speed to the NTSC release despite still being 50hz but that's not the case with HF or ST - these should be seen as simply bad ports in that regard. It's not a bad thing for NTSC to be faster because that's the original release of the game - it's just a conincidence that the PAL release was poorly optimised and slower because of it, usually that's not the sort of thing you'd consider a region split for - not to mention doing so would further segregate the already small community - it's worth considering but I feel like it's really difficult to justify.

Hitshee's idea provides a nice middleground to me however - since TurboSpeed is an official feature of the game, I think allowing PAL to utilise the TurboSpeed Unlock Code as a handicap of sorts to mitigate the slowdown incured by poor optimisation would work quite well to bridge the gap as long as the agreed upon star count for this new PAL rule doesn't go past the intended NTSC release default speed. It may not be a perfect solution as I'd expect stage transitions and text speed to remain the same but it does help bridge the gap and I think that's a really cool solution without upsetting leaderboard balance for NTSC - what is rightfully the intended speed of the game.

If a change like this happens I'd also like to see a seperate brand new category that allows everyone to use the TurboSpeed Unlock Code without restriction so we have people trying to beat the game at ridiculous speed levels - this situation is the only one I see making sense to region split since the upper levels of what's possible reach a cap.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Hitshee_Spingear and Doc like this
London, England

Tbh I still don’t see why PAL just can’t have its own category considering many games are broken down into so many different speed run categories anyway.

The game doesn’t have a big following and has not been a popular game to speed run so why not implement something new.

Just because ‘it’s always been this way’ isn’t a good enough reason to not allow for change.

At the moment we’ve got ntsc vs PAL in the same category when There is no chance of a PAL console obtaining WR. Why is PAL even included in the console selection?

Surely worth consideration? It might even attract more people into speed running the game.

Hitshee_Spingear likes this
Oregon, USA

I consulted with the other popular fighting game speedrun boards (Mortal Kombat, Fatal Fury, Primal Rage, Killer Instinct, etc.), and none of them include PAL as a category. Therefore, I will defer to their decision and keep the SFII boards as is. Quite honestly, our leader boards arguably have too many categories even as it currently stands. Doubling our already enormous number of categories to include PAL would just be overkill.

operation_doge likes this