The Final Stand for ESW
6 years ago
Virginia, USA

This is something that we need to decide as a community. What I am offering is a thread in which we can discuss this respectfully without making our own opinions seem oppressive. I just want to ask a few questions. I am going to state my opinion on the matter and I hope everyone in the community does the same.

If you agree with ESW just because of the interest, or because it is a short category; does that mean that we need a short category as a main category? I'm just wondering if it would be so bad if the shorter categories were misc? People could still run them, they would still be on the leaderboard, but do they NEED to be main categories? This really boils down to a simple question. Should Event Storage Warp be allowed in the main categories?

I'll tell you from experience, Krystal Corruption was much more enjoyable than Any% as it is now. Any% as it is now is a 34 minute run and the majority of it is cutscenes. Krystal Corruption is only 18 minutes, but more of it is gameplay than cutscenes.

My stance is, and will remain, that Event Storage Warp in all forms should not be allowed in the main categories. I believe that even though they are both short categories, Krystal Corruption, and Glitched Any%(Any% as it is now) could coexist as miscellaneous categories. They would both give runners, old and new, a short category that they can enjoy as they please.

I also want to note; whether or not Jub posts in this forum thread, that we should remember his stance is much against the existence of Event Storage Warp in the main categories.

May we finally put this to rest as a community.

France

Opinion coming from someone who hasn't run the game yet, but will soon. Don't take my Global Mod sword into consideration, I'm only representing myself on this post.

I haven't followed all the events regarding this ESW glitch, but I'll still answer these questions with my poor knowledge. [quote]If you agree with ESW just because of the interest, or because it is a short category; does that mean that we need a short category as a main category? I'm just wondering if it would be so bad if the shorter categories were misc? People could still run them, they would still be on the leaderboard, but do they NEED to be main categories? This really boils down to a simple question. Should Event Storage Warp be allowed in the main categories? [/quote] Having a short "Beat the game" category can attract new people, just like me. I've appreciated the game a lot casually, I've enjoyed watching runs back in the day, but I always told myself "This game is way too long, there's no way I'll ever run this game". When I saw that there is now a 40 minutes long category, it fits my standards, and I'm probably not the only one in this case. So yeah, I think having a short category in the main categories makes sense, as long as this category ends up beating the game, which is the case. [quote]I'll tell you from experience, Krystal Corruption was much more enjoyable than Any% as it is now. Any% as it is now is a 34 minute run and the majority of it is cutscenes. Krystal Corruption is only 18 minutes, but more of it is gameplay than cutscenes. [/quote] I cannot tell right now what is the most enjoyable run, but I guess I can give a try at both once current any% is learnt for me. [quote]I believe that even though they are both short categories, Krystal Corruption, and Glitched Any%(Any% as it is now) could coexist as miscellaneous categories. They would both give runners, old and new, a short category that they can enjoy as they please. [/quote] I'd still be fine with that. In the end, what matters is that if people want to run a category, it should be there somewhere on the boards. Whether it's a main category or a misc category is more a question of visibility.

Växjö, Sweden

I would really like to know if this new found can shorten the Any% category without actually using an -already created- setup file. Let's say you could run to a certain spot in the game, leave the file, start a new file, and then use the old one to use this glitch, and time the whole actual process. Would that save time in a full run or would it not? I have a really hard time seeing something that uses already created data to warp and overwrite in game memory as a "true" speedrun, but apparently there are a lot of people that disagree.

Mexico

I don't like the ESW, i though it would attract more runners, after 9 days of the category has less runs than the old Any%

Colorado, USA

It can't be a main category. If it didn't use a setup file, it can be. Simple as I can get.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Pottoww likes this
Pennsylvania, USA

I"m kinda in the in between boat for this.

For one, I really disagree with the usage of ESW. I don't really like using another files direct progress to make another file faster, it seems "unethical" to me. Though I've never done any speedrun that had file transfers occur (like zeldas)

By direct, I mean going into it and doing stuff. Some games have "passive" progress that allows for completion of a category (like Star Fox 64 100% for instance, being done on expert mode). It wouldn't be worth it to force a cartridge reset just to have runners get back to "100% ready file RTA," so allowing passive progress is something many can agree is a good thing.

On the other hand, the length is a strong suit for it, sub 35 minutes is an excellent length for a first speedrun.

That being said, if I had to change things, renaming it to something else and moving it to Misc. would be a first step. The category has a lot of interest, so it'd be pointless to throw it away. Ultimately I'm not really gonna try and push for one thing over the other, just stating my opinion so I can make sure things get settled correctly.

Pottoww and NarbeVoguel like this
Colorado, USA

Just a thought... Could we settle for changing it to ESW? Like have No ESW get it's name back?

Colorado, USA

Yes, I'm suggesting main category though I'm aiming for misc. I guess it's too much to ask since you seem to be trying to run the community for some reason and claim to be a valuable part to it, though you've never actually ran the full real game. Therefore you are biased towards ESW since you have no experience with Any% whereas I have experience with both categories (Any% for 3 years) and I think ESW is shit (along with other full runners) To me, you're wanting the category to stay main purely for yourself. Yes, the 12 hour challenge will surly cause more runs to appear on the leaderboards, but that'll come and go. People will run it just for the 12 hour challenge. (Prove me wrong, though) I just want dedicated/real runners. Not fucking 12 hour challenge memes. And I understand you do this with not just this game, but with other StarFox games as well. (Lylat's complained about it too) I'll be nice and assume that's just how you are, and maybe it isn't intentional. Idk. Giving suggestions is obviously aloud. But when it's disagreed on by multiple people, and someone who has done a few runs for a sub category tries to take control, it really starts to piss me off There is a majority rule here (even if only current/past runners counted) and there are others who aren't runners and are suggesting, but that's it, they don't carry on with it. I'm not sure how else I'm suppose to say this, so sorry.

Keanu and josejavier1158 like this
Växjö, Sweden

Skyward Sword for the Wii has the exact same "glitch" as this. You can start a new file, load memory from an already created file into the new one and beat the game by doing that in around 6 minutes (an otherwise 5 hour long game).

No one in the SS community takes this category competitively though. For me, a true speedrun beats the game starting without any already created progress and beats it only by using story progress achieved during an active timer.

Any% ESW fits in as a Misc category, because it bends the rules. For me this is the only obvious path a run like this could take. Also, I don't like it how you are using "you don't even run this game" as an argument. The same with me, but I still feel like I can join the discussion. Although, I would accept it if people don't weigh my argument as heavily.

StarFalco64 and NarbeVoguel like this
Colorado, USA

Taking control is my argument. Let's fucking vote on this and end it. (Anyone can vote)

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Venezuela

My input on this is not gonna be about leaving things as they are or changing them, although if it's moved to misc, it obviously needs renaming

My input is about the time it took to put this up. When ESW was found and exploited, it wasn't settled in a day or minutes, it took multiple days of discussion in the community, both forums and the discord sever. All opinions and input were taken into consideration in not only allowing this, but also in naming it, with a global SF moderator monitoring things. After it finally being settled, two weeks later someone brings it up again and we discuss it again, and it's people that didn't show up much before, despite we constantly reminding people to do so in order to avoid that.

I guess where I'm trying to get at, is that even if we all come to an agreement here and make a choice, whichever it is, that means that if, in a few weeks, the same people or some other person come with another complaint, we would have to discuss it yet again, and based on this scenario, they would have all the right to, otherwise it might seem like special treatment is given to specific people, and I don't want that.

Sorry if my input is not about the categories themselves, since I don't really mind with what happens at this point, I just want our community to be at peace, since I know this has been bothering people and I've seen stuff that I'd like to not see again, so I just want this to be the last time we have to reopen discussion over and over because an opinion or two, because that gives right to another person to complain in the future and we would have all the right to reopen discussion for them, otherwise it'd be a matter of double standarts or user preference, and we are a community, for god's sake, no one matters more than anyone because of user status/run time, amount of time invested in the game, etc. The SF community is not SF adventures community, is a StarFox community, and even if people wanna join our community, their input is just as valid, and if we want more people join, this is a horrible example.

That is all. Happy debating, everyone.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Keanu likes this
Colorado, USA

Any% should get it's name back. ESW should become misc. That's my input. Here's the difference with other communities: They don't have to work with a game that has bullshit programming.

Pennsylvania, USA

I'd like to just say keep things on track with the discussion, personal attacks aren't something that should be brought up when it comes to handling stuff on a community leaderboard. Not going to name names, but just act civil please.

I also would like to reiterate what was discussed about how we first handled this. Me and Narbe practically begged people to get into the discussion and have a conversation, place their input, and whatnot in a public forum. It was near unanimous what should be expected after discussion, however the moment the category went down to sub 40 minutes after already agreed on how to handle it, things for some reason changed.

I take responsibility for things being the way they currently are, i thought several days was enough for the community to talk things over, but ironically enough, the first time I try to hasten a decision with community support, things happen to backfire (remember how long it took for 100% to get discussed?).

All I will say is I truly want people to voice their opinions on how they think this should be handled, there are several runners and community members (even if they don't run the game) that have yet to provide input. I know it's probably gonna suck but I want this settled by the end of the week (me personally, not an actual deadline). After this discussion we can all go back to being closer together because something as minor as this shouldn't fracture us. Just remember that this is a community leaderboard, we may disagree but at the end of the day we all share it.

StarFalco64 and NarbeVoguel like this
Colorado, USA

If anyone's to blame, it's me. This all eventually got to the point where I was willing to make enemies (temprorary or not) Even after I had apologized to Narbe, I let it happen again and I became fed up at that point. I'm not gonna believe everything was caused by me, but most of it probably was. Hell, I'm kinda sick of apologizing. Whatever. I'd like to hope this never happens again, but... you know.

StarFalco64 likes this
Venezuela

ESW stands for an event stored in a previously set up file, to swap locations in a new made file. You access in the middle of the run the setup file to store the location/event, then go back to the run file, void out/death warp (depends on where you perform it) and you'll be in the same location as the setup file's except with the run file's data. At first this made any% go down from 4:40 hours to 3:30 hours average, then it was exploited to be able to take it down to 40 minutes. During the first scenario, it was only used to merge Walled City 1 and 2, and it was widely accepted, when it was exploited to switch locations while preserving the run data and taken down to less than 40 minutes, that's when things changed. Some communities don't use it (like LoZ community with SS), but there are other communities that do (BK community with FFM on BK and DCW on BT), both communities were taken into consideration when this was discussed, also the SF64 passive progress for 100%. If you wanna know more about ESW, there's a guide posted in SF Adv Guide section, and you can look up the setup file glitches I mentioned in their respective communities' page and guides for more info.

That's basically what is being discussed right here: if the new any% should be moved to misc or banned, or kept as it is. I made this post for anyone who's not updated on the matter but wanna voice their opinion regardless so we can resume the discussion and EVERYONE gets to submit your input so this isn't brought up in a few weeks like it has been done now, which imo shouldn't have.

I don't wanna have to remind everyone constantly to do this, because it was done so before and people still didn't show up, and we're discussing this again because of that, and we should avoid that. So please, let's not have this discussion up forever.

StarFalco64 likes this
Japan

The difference between ESW and RESW is copied data is all or partial. Why is not all copy allowed but partial copy is allowed? If half of data is copied, do you allow it?

Current, we can not run faster with a clean memory card and ESW. (except category of Spellstone 3 or 4) So, writing "do not use ESW" and "use a clean memory card" in Any%NoESW rule are same, but it may not be so in future.

ESW copies not only the location. Fox has a Krystal's Staff before ESW, but he has it after ESW. Also, the method of ESW and RESW are similar. In ESW, if do not save when Fox dies in ThornTail Hollow, it will copy all data of setup file and Fox will warp to 5th Krazoa Shrine.

We should deal with various glitches of future. So, rule based on specific glitch is not good.

The nexts are my wish.

Any% rule is "All slots must be empty at the start." (can ESW) or "do not run other file" (can not ESW)

Any%(use already created file) rule is "Timing begins on new file select and ends on final hit on Andross in the same slot." Other slot is other file. "copy" is not "move". This category is same as "Krystal Corruption".

A category that allow ESW and do not allow RESW is other something. But that is strange to me. It is difficult to create the rule that is not based on specific glitch.

Sorry, my English is wrong.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Venezuela

Thank you for your detailed input, Bvq. Greatly appreciated!

[quote]Any%(use already created file) rule is "Timing begins on new file select and ends on final hit on Andross in the same slot." Other slot is other file. "copy" is not "move". This category is same as "Krystal Corruption". [/quote]

I can see your point, RESW copies the entire run data, but ESW copies mostly location, I assume the staff is kept after ESW because the game assumes you would have it at that point, so it's kinda locked to Fox past CloudRunner Fortress or something? I don't know, the game is kinda weird. Maybe, to allow a difference between the two, IGT should also be uploaded to the leaderboards, since RESW uses the IGT from the setup file, so if it took you 10 hours vs another person's IGT would be about 6 hours, we wouldn't be able to measure with that, so for ESW we could modify the leaderboards to upload IGT prior to Andross/Krazoa 5 save warp if enough people agree.

Based on your input, we could have Krystal Corruption AND any%, but the runs are relatively similar, just one is faster because data copy allows to skip more cutscenes, and current any% has more game time, enough variation to separate runs even further. If enough people agree, that is.

So, let's do the following, let's vote on the options I'll write down here (if you have a different one, feel free to post it), with why you refer that(those) option(s), AND THIS IMPORTANT: explain how, based on your input, the ruleset should be explained, and we'll deal with Krystal Corruption as well, whether include it or not. Doing this for the sake of not reopening discussions for a 4th time, this is ridiculous.

Seeing how we still haven't decided cause people post and leave, I am gonna put an actual deadline, much to my dismay, because I really want everyone to voice their opinions now, but given how runs are still being submitted, I don't wanna confuse people in the future with the category being modified/deleted/or whatever we decide, in 24 hours two runs for current any% were uploaded, so the sooner we solve this, the better. Deadline is for the end of this week, however depending how things go (with discussion and runs) I, or any other mod, can stretch it. So, based on everyone's input, here are the options so far:

1.- Move any% to misc, with no changes whatsoever (¤¤¤)

2.- Regardless of any% decision, include IGT so we have a exclusive ruleset against RESW

3.- With exclusive ESW ruleset, allow Krystal Corruption to be back on misc or not (¤)

4.- Ban ESW/RESW completely

5.- Keep any% as a main category, any% no ESW remains as the principal category regardless

6.- Rename any% to "any% ESW" so 'no ESW' gets its neutral name back (¤¤¤)

Of course, one last reminder: this is a discussion so something works for ALL of us, so keep it civil, no personal attacks against any user, and most importantly, ANYONE in the community can voice their opinion, whether they've done a run of the game or not, so nothing of "I've done multiple runs of the real long category, and you just touched a misc one, so your opinion is less valid than mine" or any of that, ok? Please. And once again, happy debating, people. Let's not make this another "100%" debate.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Japan

I feel it is strange to care about In-Game-Time in Real-Time-Attack. The simpler thing is to create "In Game Time" category.

Venezuela

The problem with that is that we can't measure IGT prior to Andross fight, so we would have to SQ once reaching Andross but not defeating him, imo that's why an IGT category wouldn't do. We measure IGT on Assault (to put an example within the community) as well because loading times can affect RTA a lot, but RTA is still predominant (IGT might be messed up with Objective skip, this is the reason that's not the predominant one on the leaderboards, but it's still taken into consideration). I'm just saying that the idea of having both RTA + IGT is not that far fetched.

I included it as an option if people wanna make a ruleset that divides ESW and RESW, but more options would be appreciated and taken into consideration as well.

Japan

You are right, it is the problem that it can not defeat Andross. It will end without defeating Andross, or it add real time to IGT. One IGT runner added real time to IGT.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
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