"This guy has nothing to do with SA - never actively ran the game or nothing, but gets a say over everyone else because he started running VC in 2013 - makes sense, right guys?"

"there's nothing wrong with MH being mod."

Yeah I agree with the name thing. I understand why that would be a concern.

I feel like if it became a category, there'd need to be a pretty clear cut set of rules. You could always account for other stuff in future, like "No wrong warps". I'd also include a note about it being non-exhaustive, that the rules can and will change if new major glitches are found, or even that this category expects you to complete a specific set of missions in their entirety.

Maybe setting out a parameter for 'what a major glitch is', like 'Any glitch that allows you to skip missions, wrong warp, or otherwise bypass segments of the game', that would preclude things like despawning traffic, or sliding, as they don't skip any segments of the game - to me at least, those aren't major glitches.

Regarding replacing ASM, that could just be a time thing. If ASM stays alive while NMG is a thing, then I think they should be left separate.

I don't think starting a vote in this thread is a good idea. We're also discussing stuff like the name and whatnot so I don't think just voting on "Any% Dupeless" right now is what we should do.

Also sorry for the fighting but these allegations/complaints have been going on for a long time and I'm really sick of it.

EDIT: Zoton just suggested to me "Any% No Major Skips" which I like more than No Major Glitches, but what if a glitch that makes you faster comes out but doesn't skip stuff? Hmm

@Joshimuz Well, sliding is technically a glitch, it's a faster method on missions like EOTL and Home Invasion, but would you consider it a major glitch compared to wrong warps, SSU, or OM0?

I think the ultimate point should be preventing skipping segments of the game. Other minor glitches like sliding should still be allowed.

Yes, sliding being allowed is what I had in mind. I really hope no one has a problem with sliding being in every run.

"Glitchless" is a bad idea because what is a glitch and there are lots of minor things that would be super annoying, like getting into the passenger side door of a car and leaving the door open which kills the driver (is this a glitch?)

"No Major Glitches" is better because we don't have the "what is a glitch" problem as much and only really have a "what is a major glitch" problem instead.

I'm just going to respond to this nonsense and the responses in this thread will probably be the last time because all it is is just basically talking to walls. NUMBER 1

Cool one @English_Ben @Joshimuz - Honestly, you or anyone else reading this, tell me how this is a contradiction?

YES, there's nothing wrong with MH being a moderator - a lot of people here are very capable of being mod. But him having a say over other people JUST because he is a moderator like he is indicating here is wrong, honestly, are you not smart enough to get the point? It really is a black hole arguing with some people here.

NUMBER 2

"Even if you look at the old "bring LS% to the leaderboard" threads the ammount of people who want it vs the ammount who don't - there's no big difference. Even looking at this Thread, seems like more people want Dupeless on the boards than people who don't OK, lets say it's not far off 50% (even if it is/isn't). A change to the current format/rules/country SHOULD require a higher than 51% vote. Again this is the problem with first past the post voting and pure democracies as I've stated previously. You seem to believe that if 51% of people want something then everything should be changed immediately to fit this. I personally don't believe this is the case but this is turning into polictal discussion. (Also who said Any% Dupeless isn't being added? We're discussing it, I'm even in favour of it!?!)"

• If 51% of people are in favour of it, then yes , it should be added, I am saying that you don't say whether that is right or not. This goes back to the word D E M O C R A C Y - spell it with me.

NUMBER 3

• I provided pictures with no context? I admit that's true, but here you go, tell me this still isn't context.

You or MH tell me this isn't acting over-important. - Come on defend yourselves - dig a deeper hole.

"and there was no one else who is suitable/wanted to"

• Please tell me what makes someone suitable to be mod and what makes MH so suitable?

The picture you posted of me, post the full context please.

We need Moderators for the Moderators, honestly.

To me it sounds like you are saying MH is a bad mod for SA by saying: "This guy has nothing to do with SA - never actively ran the game or nothing, but gets a say over everyone else because he started running VC in 2013 - makes sense, right guys?". I don't think I'm the only one understanding that sentence that way. If anyone else understood it that way then can they say something? Are me and Ben alone in this? Also ben's post is a shit post. He does that. So do you.

Everyone struggled to understand your point because your problem apparently is: MH is having a say over everyone else. But, is he? I don't see where. You didn't really explain it. You explained why he has no SA experience which would make him a bad mod, but not where he has had a say over anyone else. Where has he had a say over someone? He's never overruled me or any other mod. If you mean your discord picture that you seem to be obsessed about then that's just him shitposting isn't it? Should I pull up a picture of you shitposting and keep referring to it over and over again? I feel the same way when I get 37 notifications, I guess that it's that many notifications because it's just another flame war and no discussion of value is being had (however that isn't true of this thread, this thread has actually be OK for the most part, but previously it was not which is why I get that reaction)

You didn't really provide much counter point just said the same thing again and not why. I'm not writing what I said again though. EDIT: Opps missed the end bit sorry.

• If 51% of people are in favour of it, then yes , it should be added, I am saying that you don't say whether that is right or not. OK, and I disagree. I think that you do have to filter the votes, that you do have to require more than 51% for controversial/big changes. You didn't really address my justifications for it so I don't know what else to say.

3. Yes that is more context now, and I think it makes what MH said make more sense. He feels that people are being cry babies about the topic, AGAIN is he not allowed to call people that? Is this one incident the whole basis of your "have a say over other people" thing? I just can't take this discord quote thing seriously from you when you called me out when I was quoting what you said in discord here and earlier on discord. Fine for you but not fine against you or something? Anyway my picture of what you said still stands. "Can't tell the difference between a joke and serious" or something like that. MH is shitposting, I don't think he'd actually. AGAIN he's not a "professional" moderator and can shit post if he wants.

*"and there was no one else who is suitable/wanted to"

• Please tell me what makes someone suitable to be mod and what makes MH so suitable?* I did, he has previous experience moderating VC but I'd forgive you for missing stuff in my massive post.

I'll assume since you only quoted a tiny fraction of what I said/my counter points to your post that you have no issues with everything else I said. Hopefully we can get back on track for discussing adding a new category now?

I like "No Major Glitches" as a category name, because it keeps it more open to define in the rules what is and isn't allowed. This seems necessary to future proof the category, as was pointed out. It can still lead to some discussions over rules (what doesn't), but it's probably the best chance to stay true to what I assume the intention of this category is: To have a run more similiar to that before duping, but still allow newer small techniques like despawning traffic or using replays for minor skips, which don't change the overall run as much.

As for having it on the main leaderboards: I don't really see an issue with adding it. It's a pretty reasonable category to have (as long as it is defined well!), because I feel people interested in the game (not just runners) will be looking for it ("Hey, I wonder what the best time without all those crazy glitches is like?"). Isn't that what speedrun.com is about? To give people access to information, both on what times and runs there are and forums/guides. Even it the category is not very active, it still informs people about the fact that it's not very popular compared to any%. Maybe it will even get people into running it.

Now I'm not for adding every possible category to the main leaderboards and having loads of categories with just a few or no runs. But an any% category with some variations of restrictions (No Gltiches, No Major Glitches, No Mission Skips) seems like a pretty common thing in Speedrunning (I assume especially if the introduction of new glitches kind of created a new era in the run, and it's nice to keep them separate) and I'm not sure how it hurts having an extra tab on the leaderboards for something like that (again, under the condition of it being well defined).

He must have a pretty pathetically small view of the community to say nobody else was suitable/wanted too. Especially if he is considering people who don’t run the game or know the rules(see day 1 of MHs time as a mod when he said flyings run didn’t show the initial load immediately after watching a video showing the initial load). That’s a very weak thing to say what would have been better is, “nobody else from my little club of buddies wanted to be mod” And a discussion about appropriate behavior by the mods is just “a flame war”? You guys are full of yourselves, reset speaks the truth.

I didn't actually make the decision on who was added as a mod, I only took part in the discussion.

I can also only consider people I know. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know people I don't know well enough to trust them as mod. There have been instances of bad mods added who weren't fully trusted by the current mods but given a chance in the past on say GTA:V that caused pretty big problems. Havi was it, I don't quite remember?

I think a new mod making a simple mistake on the first day is pretty reasonable? Did it make a big difference? Did he not back down on it? Did he overrule everyone about it and have a say over them? I don't know the exact incident but I'd hope not.

And yeah, the club of buddies thing is reasonable. Again, hard to trust people you don't know. We discussed openly in the discord who should be mod, I'm not sure how else we could do it. Maybe discuss it here but that'll just be another shit show :/

I didn't call "discussion about appropriate behavior by the mods" a flame war? I said when you see so many notifcations before you read the post you assume it's a flame war (which we've had plenty of before between people like cooler, ben etc about people asking simple questions. Do I have to link examples?)

Everything tduva said is basically how I feel/what I meant too.

The big flame debate is a bit crazy. I'm just gonna play devil's advocate and hope it communicates more clearly, I think reset's problem is it sounds like Mh, from the post, is going to use his position to prevent the change as he "reserves the right". I don't think it's the crybaby thing that's the issue. Either way, I don't want to be overly caught up in this, I'm just trying to diffuse the communication frustration here.

i've been watching this grow and imo " any% dupeless" or whatever it shall be called, i've always held that it shouldn't of ever of gone to the "meme" boards. myself and other runners i've talk to about this seem to side with me on this as duping kills runs and to put a run in a "meme" board not everyone views it as a legit run but that can be broken down to opinion rather than fact. ASM was made to counter any% as we know it today ( or so that is the story i've been told ) but the only thing i don't like with ASM is the GT skip but that is done and over with and that isn't what this thread is about as some of you need to learn to stick to the discussion at hand. also if/when " any% dupeless " does come to the main boards i say don't carry over the runs let it start fresh and not have old submitted runs on there and make feel age like ASM is right now again all of this is imo.

You said This is going to go off topic and turn into a flame war (...),but sure I'll directly address everything you just said. No mention of any notifications or anything but I’ll let that go cause it’s probably accurate. When people fear the mods there is tyranny, when the mods fear the people there is liberty. MH saying he was gonna stop a bunch of crybabies, who clearly form a majority of people who have cared to comment, from changing the leaderboard is quite obviously the former not the latter. And since it has become quite obvious that this change will be made it makes him look even worse that he didn’t want to care enough to discuss it. I’m fine if you don’t feel comfortable modding people you don’t know well that makes sense, but the current mods shouldn’t necessarily have the only say in who becomes a mod, obviously it is a decision the community should support. I don’t think every mod should be made up of the “old guard” that calls the shots now, the mods should be representative of the community, you should seek out other groups within the community. Your above post is shocking to me, the amount of power you feel being mod gives you is shocking to me. I’m glad reset spoke out.

I feel like if Any% Dupeless gets added, at least the runs that are currently on the meme board should be carried over.

@MToms127 you seem to have a knack for creating all sorts of conspiracy theories when you don't get your way. First it was "Tut-less all tags didn't make CE because everyone hates me for no reason" and now it's "SA mods have a little buddy club" like it's some form of powerful cult that nobody can access. What next, SrCom is hosted in area 51?

@BackmadeJay what's the reason to start fresh? you can't just exile old runs that were done dupeless or glitchless or whatever just because you say so, they are still valid runs

I personally don't see why "any% with some restrictions" should be on the main leaderboard, to me it lacks in game justification and belongs to Category Extensions just like Cutscene% and other made up categories.

Well, the thing about moderators in a group, is that the moderators have to be able to work well together. It can go very wrong if there's no awareness of the situation, where it feeds into negative behaviour, and that can definitely be a downside of the moderators being friends.

But if the moderators aren't friends, and don't communicate well, then there ends up a great incongruity in rules and enforcement of them. It can be just as damaging to have a lack of consistency as it can be to have moderators feeding into each other negatively.

In the fairly sizeable Source community I was in, I had to remove several moderators because they were cheating for their friends, or failing to enforce rules evenly. It's really hard to find impartial people, if they're all on the same page and communicate well, you can at least effectively minimise that variation.That does take self moderation though.

Ohh I see sorry MToms I was thinking about the notifications being a flame war, sorry. As for what I said I meant that attacking each other directly like we were doing, and going off topic into other stuff was probably going to cause one. To be fair it doesn't seem like it has, but I just feel any discussion here goes that way :/

MH said what he said how many posts in? I don't know what he was thinking, I can't keep defending what he said as if I knew the reasons, I wasn't even there. But again, I think he can say whatever he wants because no one here is a professional and a lot of people shit post (I don't agree with this and everyone should be nice but w/e). His ACTIONS are what's important. If he actually did veto/block/undo us adding a new category then that would be something completely different and I'd agree with you. I think now some decent points have been brought up and we're actually discussing it, but 5 posts into this thread it was just "another one of those" threads.

Also the whole power thing, I don't feel that way? I'm not sure when I've ever used/abused my "power". I've actually been considering unmodding myself because the stress of doing this plus everything else I'm dealing with right now is getting to me. (this was in my discord general chat a few hours ago, before I posted anything)

By your definition of a good mod, MH is doing good, already belittling people by calling them cry babies just because they want some category on the leaderboard. The SA mods are very good at doing this,he fits right in.

"I still "RESERVE" the right to prevent crybabies from changing the leaderboard to their whim" - MH If this isn't having power someone else, then i don't know what is. Unless regular members can add/remove categories from the LB, MH has "power" over them.

When called out, just call the quote "shitposting" - right, Joshimuz? I'm sure MH will do that in his defense when he sees this.

Are you implying this is a big/controversial change, how does it matter? I know a lot of you get triggered over any "LS%" threads or any threads requesting a new category, but it really makes no difference whether it is on here or not - it's basically just a pride thing for you.

And by the way, i recall you (mods) instantly locking/deleting LS% threads basically saying "we made up our minds" - but i can't find any of them to show examples so i can't really call you out on it but i'm sure some people will say there was way more threads than there is now - that's being very democratic, right?

3. MH has banned people in the Discord for reasons that i think are not even remotely good enough, i don't see why he wouldn't abuse power here.

"3. MH has banned people in the Discord for reasons that i think are not even remotely good enough, i don't see why he wouldn't abuse power here."

He cleaned out idiots who have nothing constructive to say and have given nothing to the community. Nothing wrong with that