Prince of Persia (SNES) Forum  /  request new routes
  Akuma_apnAkuma_apn

hey Tocaloni, I've come up with some new routes for the Any% category, so if you can add those, I'll submit a new video.

The current submission for Any%, at 20:15, is for the route called "Warp 6."

I have created a new route which warps to level 8, so we can create a route label for that called "Warp 8."

And I've also created a new route which warps to level 16, and the official time is 12:12. I'll be continuing to work on that one to bring it down below 12 minutes. This will need a route label called "Warp 16."

Let me know when you have set those up, and I will go ahead and submit my 12 minute video for "Warp 16."

While you're at it, you might as well create route labels for the other category, "Any% No Gate Skip." The current submissions there use the "Warp 8" route. I'm working on an alternate "Warp 16" with no gate skipping, which will belong in that category.

 
  toca_1toca_1
(edited: )

Correct me if I'm mistaken: the current Any% (No Gate Skip) route equals what you describe as "Warp 8" given said route warps to level 8? So the only thing that gets added really is Warp 16?

Another thing I'd be fond of, given the growing number of warp routes, is to simply have Any% (with Warp 16 route) and Any% (No Warp) as main categories, and all other warp categories/routes become miscellaneous. Although I agree on the respective runs being features in different categories, I'd find it rather confusing for someone who first visits this leaderboard and sees
• Any% (Warp 16)
• Any% (Warp 6)
• Any% (Warp 8​)
• Any% (No Warp)
To visualize my idea, I (at least temporarily) changed the boards accordingly in this regard.

 
  Akuma_apnAkuma_apn
(edited: )

I actually like the way you did it. I do want to suggest a slight modification. This new warp to level 16 was extremely unexpected, so I'm just trying to figure out the best way to update reality, and be fair to everyone. I appreciate your patience as we try to make room for this crazy "game changing" discovery.

As far as these Miscellaneous categories go, remember that we want to make sure we provide a good separation between the three main types of play for this game.
1 - using warps to corrupt the prince's animation, for the purpose of skipping gates, and skipping large portions of levels.
2 - using warps only to skip ahead to another level, and to activate the Kill Button.
3 - the standard game play, with no warps or corruption, & no special abilities.

From that perspective, the specific warps are really secondary, but I think the main two considerations would just be for levels 8 and 16. So, I agree with you that we shouldn't complicate things by creating a new category for every single possible combination (there are lots of warps). I've been researching this game constantly for the past 4 months, so I think the best idea is to simply delineate between level 8 and 16, and let the other warps (4, 6, 6.5, 7) just be "allowed" within the limit of an 8 or 16 framework. Furthermore, I do think it is important to highlight level 8, because it has been the main warp, and should remain a very interesting and competitive route, since it doesn't skip all the interesting levels.

So I would propose the following list of 4 categories, for now (without Miscellaneous):

• Any% -- rules state that any warp is allowed, (with a note that warps only going as high as level 8 will be put into one of the level 8 categories), and any related animation corruption that allows the prince to skip through closed gates is permitted. -- This category will inevitably be dominated by "Warp 16", as no other method could come close, time-wise.

• Any% (Warp 8, w/ Gate Skip) -- rules state that this category will restrict use of warps to those which only go as far as level 8. This language would allow lesser warps to remain in the category & become obsolete when the player is ready to submit a better run with a better warp.

• Any% (Warp 8, no Gate Skip) -- same as above, but using animation corruption to skip gates is not allowed.

• Any% (No Warp) -- the original game.

This makes a lot of sense to me, by having divisions based generally on length and on special abilities. Each of the 4 categories suggested above should be quite different from one another, and should be fairly competitive. In my opinion, there will not be any further warp discoveries, so this framework should nicely cover all of the different options.

I think any other combinations, such as "Warp 16, no Gate Skip", or "Gate Skip, Beat All Levels", could be appropriately placed in the Miscellaneous section later, as they are kind of random.

toca_1toca_1 likes this. 
  toca_1toca_1
(edited: )

This sounds quite reasonable, I just implemented your suggestions. If some wording in the ruleset is too ambiguous or enhanceable in another way, feel free to tell us.

Congratulations again on finding this new warp!

 
  SkinomarshSkinomarsh

warp 8 and 16 should all 2 stay in the gate skip category in my opinion, I think it's way too much category for nothing, warp no gate skip and warp gate skip that's enough

 
  SkinomarshSkinomarsh

if he finds a new shortcut in gate skip you go yet creates a category? I find that it does a lot for nothing, and also when it comes to the leaderboard it should be any% no warp that we see first because it is the most important category

 
  Akuma_apnAkuma_apn

Skino, the point is that I can also use Warp 16 with No Gate Skip. It takes about 14 minutes, or 17 minutes. So there are 2 divisions for each category.

Skino makes a good point. There's two ways to do it, and either one works about the same.

The current setup is basically a Warp 16 category (Any%), and a Warp 8 category (subdivided into Gate Skip & No Gate Skip).

Skino suggests the alternative, a Gate Skip category (subdivided into Warp 8, and Warp 16), and a No Gate Skip category (subdivided into Warp 8, and Warp 16).

Likewise, Skino suggests that No Gate Skip with subdivision Warp 8 should be viewed first, because it is the most popular "fast time" group, even though it's not the fastest.

I suppose I'm ok with either arrangement. While Skino's arrangement would get rid of a generic (unlabeled) Any% category, I think that's probably ok, because this is a very unusual game, and the different speedruns probably should be more specific (and thus, clearly labeled).

As I said before, I don't think any other major discoveries will be found, so we're getting pretty close to where we need to be. And in the future, any other random speed-run configurations can be put into Miscellaneous.

Toca, do you have a further opinion on how it should be split up?

I might lean in favor of Skino's suggestion, because, as I said, the primary focus should be on the game play ability (gate Skip), and the warp length is a secondary clarification.

- No Gate Skip (Warp 8 / Warp 16)
- Gate Skip (Warp 8 / Warp 16)
- No Warp.

 
  SkinomarshSkinomarsh

personally I find it useless to have more category for the same glitch, you just improved the glitch and the way to do, it is my opinion, I let tolcanie decided

toca_1toca_1 likes this. 
  SkinomarshSkinomarsh

congratulations for your run , you've got a lot better

 
  toca_1toca_1
(edited: )

Actually I agree with Skino's (second-to-)last post; the subdivision "Gate Skip (=Any%) / No Gate Skip / No Warp" is justified by how much runs of these categories differ and is something I agree with. But to me there is no point in having specified subcategores for warps to different levels as

• those make the board less overseeable
• routes change all the time. Having separate (sub)categories for outdated, slower routes which do not differ in the glitches they use is not the point of a speedrun leaderboard.

Of course there is no objective measure here; this is solely my opinion on what a leaderboard on this site should be there for and anybody else is entitled to have a different opinion on this matter.

Akuma_apnAkuma_apn and SkinomarshSkinomarsh like this. 
  Akuma_apnAkuma_apn
(edited: )

Yeah, that makes sense to me. Preserving the 3 gameplay types is most important. So it looks like we have that.

Essentially my Warp 6 run for Gate Thief has been obsoleted by the Warp 16 route.

However, (in my opinion), it seems a shame to wipe out the warp 8 routes altogether. As I said earlier, now that I have found the Warp 16 route, anyone can use the basic Warp 16 route (without the extra trick for Gate Thief), to achieve a time of 17 minutes or better in the "No Gate Skip" category. (Another unfortunate downside to this is that the Warp 16 route is so short, there's not much room for "Gate Skipping" to make a difference, so they would be very similar, and kind of boring.)

While I agree with you generally on the purpose of the speedrun leaderboard, I think another important factor is highlighting alternate routes that are popular, and accentuate a different aspect of the game.

The Warp 16 & Warp 8 routes kind of complement each other. Whereas Warp 16 skips levels 6-15, Warp 8 skips 2-7. At the very least, I would want to preserve Warp 8 (Gate Skip / No Gate Skip) as a Miscellaneous tab, since it is a very different run, with different challenges.

As an example, Super Mario Bros. 1 has many many alternate categories & category extensions to highlight different routes and different rules, because they are popular and competitive.

As I said, Warp 8 (No Gate Skip) may be competitive & popular now, with Zott & Skino & myself working towards a perfect Warp 8 run. But it will basically be erased by Warp 16 if we do not at least preserve it as a Miscellaneous split category.

What do you think about that, Skino?

 
  SkinomarshSkinomarsh

I find it very good what Tolcanie has in place

 
  Akuma_apnAkuma_apn

reminder, we need to update the rules for Any%, as it still mentions Warp 8, which has been removed.

 
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