FUNYUNS

Warr, the necklace isn't a duplication.

Trading sequence is not a part of the ruleset. Seashells are. Duping has been banned previously.

EZ every time.

Factual justifications (reiterated): -We do not allow duplications of other items ---You argue that it is different than HP duplication, we argue that the distinction is minor. (As a result the "factual" argument you've proposed is an opinion, just like how this point is also an opinion). -The seashells are unique items which have individual locations. Whereas other things (like rupees) do not -We have banned other glitches that acquire items through artificial means in the past. This is a glitch that acquires seashells artificially. -There is no wording in the ruleset that everyone uses (except Cransoon) that protects trading sequence (unfortunately) ---There IS wording about seashells , which allows the justification of keeping them in the category. -If you want consistency, "no duplication" sounds like the most consistent (opinion).

Those are the justifications. Let's go, point-for-point, through Cransoon's current argument (in his last post):

-"All I've heard from the opposition is that it doesn't show off the game enough". I've cited precedent, wording in the rules, other glitches that follow the same idea. I think what you said has reduced the argument to one point only, which it is not. -"How do you quantify [showing off as much of the game as possible]". Just because something is not easily quantifiable does not mean it is not a justifiable reason to dismiss the argument. Since content is hard to numerically quantify, we are having a discussion. Most (if not all) people agree that going and getting the seashells is "more" content to the game. -"If you want the rule set of a category to be consistent, then you must apply consistent logic to it." Again, banning duplication in one sense then keeping it in a different sense seems less consistent to me, * regardless * of whether or not an "item disappears". I am having trouble seeing where the inconsistency lies. -Maybe it lies here (paraphrase), 'skipping the trading sequence and skipping the seashells is more or less the same'. Sure, the two are similar. The big thing is that the rules do not protect the trading sequence. We can not point to any word in the ruleset that says "you must perform the trading sequence". However, there is a statement (however vague) about seashells in the rules. THEREFORE we can justify keeping them in. There is no inconsistency within the dictated rules. ---["get the boomerang before D5?" I'm pretty sure this is slower at this point and would not be done] -"Our only option is to allow SS Duping [based on skipping the trading sequence]". That is false, for the above reason. It is ** not ** our only option. -"But when the goal is to have this category not contradict itself" Where is the category contradicting itself? The category, again, doesn't protect the trading sequence, so we can not argue for its presence (without invalidating old runs). It does not say "do the trading sequence, then don't do the trading sequence". There is no contradiction. If anything "duplication of certain items" is more of a contradiction than anything else (which has been reiterated a number of times in this counterpoint) -"we ** must ** allow SS duping". There is such strong finality in this phrasing. Again, there are other solutions to the problem at hand. There is not only one answer. -"... in THIS 100% category... [the 'showing off the game' argument] simply doesn't fit". Again, the precedent over the last 2.5 years is to keep content. It has been definitely "fit" with how we decide the rules. That is why we use the phrase "get the color tunic from the color dungeon" because we knew you could glitch the tunics. If the argument of showing of content was not a sound one, then we would say, "get all items, by any means, excluding OoB and WW". That is NOT what the rules say. The rules were put in place to make us get these items individually.

Summary: Duplication is not allowed for certain items. The fact that seashells "disappear" is a very thin reason to call for their duplication. Past decisions for 100% came from maintaining content of the game. The break in the trading sequence came from the unfortunate foresight from people who made the rules 3+ years ago and there is no way we can keep it in at this point. There is more than enough precedent, logical consistency, and people in favor to ban seashell duplication. No new categories. No runs invalidated.

I'm not sure the two proposed categories satisfy the issue here. Current runs would be invalidated for "True 100%", and in the category where they would not be invalidated has duping. The "new" category should have duping, and the "old" should still be valid.

Having "two categories significant enough to matter" is the issue. There seems to only be disagreement on one issue: Seashell duplication. I don't think that those are different enough, which is why I was against the idea of adding a new category.

A discussion about a newer, more expansive 100% (leaves, beaks, compasses, maps) is a completely different beast which needs to be discussed separately (probably after this is taken care of).

Context:

-100% is my favorite category. I treat it seriously. (I could have done it like All Instruments and get the WR and just stop completely. Instead, I struggled, grinded, and fought to get the first 1:32, 1:27, 1:25, and will continue to struggle to get the 1:24/1:23)

-It is not seen / perceived as "serious" by the general populous. (Given the fact that there are so few runs of it, and the times between these runs are large).

Notice that I mention Zorlax% (No S&Q, without Super Jumps or Bomb Glitches), probably the category I've taken the most seriously. Is it a serious category? No. Do I take it seriously? Yes. Do I take it a little too seriously? Probably.

So yes. I can take a run / category seriously without it being a "serious" category.

Oh GT... I think we both knew what I meant when I said that.

I was doing SERIOUS 100% runs before I was accepted into Californithon for No S&Q, and I always take 100% seriously. It's my favorite (real) category.

You can also glitch to get certain photos, then the opportunity for the photo disappears. We don't allow for that either.

And creating new categories is a great idea in theory, but doesn't really hold up. If we had a category split for every new development / disagreement we have LADX, we'd have like 30 categories. No S&Q w/ deathwarp, No S&Q with No SJ's, No S&Q SJ's no Bomb Glitch, No S&Q Return Bowwow, etc. It seems like it would make more people happy, but in reality, it just separates people more. Then other people who watch the speedrun have no clue what they watch and why some people do some route that is 90% similar to another and so on.

Believe me, I have been on the unhappy side of MANY rulings in LADX; It sucks, but if everyone is on the same page, it's better. (Like, I still run No S&Q, No SJ, No Bomb glitch, but I do that as a personal thing. No one else needs to be related to it).

I will remark on the idea of creating new categories. LADX has never been fond of splitting a category when a glitch was found (see SJ vs No SJ; Bomb glitch vs No Bomb Glitch). The biggest exception would be when ACE was still thought to be viable. I have never been a fan of having "too many categories" (and that is a whole discussion that we don't need to have here), as a result, I think splitting the categories would be just too much. VERY few people run 100%, and making a split would just have more categories with like 5 runs total (I'm looking at you: All Instruments, Legacy). IF (and I say if), there is to be some sort of split, one of the categories NEEDS to be put into the Misc. area.

I would like to say that Rapid said very cleanly the things I would have wanted to say. A few points:

-I don't think that "showing off as much of the game" as possible is too broad. I would like to show off as much of the game as possible without invalidating past runs. That's the idea that I'm going for (and that's what we have been doing for the last 2 years or so).

-"I think we can all agree that the game developers weren't idiots..." I'm not so sure :P

To respond to Cransoon:

The seashells are not the only thing to disappear after certain conditions. Photos are miss-able if you don't get them in time. In effect, those photos "disappear". I have more to this argument, but I have to go D:

-BRB

I disagree with Cransoon's arguments. First, he's using a definition of 100% that most (if not all) others do not use. Granted, that ruleset came from an SDA thread. However, those rules would only apply to SDA runs. Most others started running this category from ZSR which has the ruleset I described. (Lastly, the rules from SRC are based off of ZSR rules).

The fundamental part of Cransoon's argument is that 100% does not intend to show off the game. Whether or not you agree with that will decide how you feel on this issue. I personally feel that 100% should show off as much of the game as possible. What everyone else feels is going to be a matter of debate. However, I will say that more recent historical precedent indicates that we keep as much of the game as we can. (Within limits).

What are these limits? These limits are from the rules themselves. Cransoon brings up the point of us skipping the trading sequence. This is a very valid point. If I were in discussions 3+ years ago about what to keep in and what not to keep in, I would have argued for the trading sequence. However, the rules were written with the idea of the trading sequence being skipped in mind. Runs were performed. Times were verified. We can't go back and add in new restrictions that invalidate old runs, the only thing we can do is make sure that future runs do not suffer the same issues.

Lastly, the age-old Jp vs US debate. Switching between the two languages does not take any * content * out of the game. What we're talking about really does. Again, I was not around when those discussions were taking place. From what I heard is that the refusal to change languages was really not a community effort. That's the difference now: We are discussing this, as a community.

I don't know where * exactly* we go from here. I personally would like to hear more discussion from more persons within the community before we all make a decision.

-Z7

Seabass noticed me now? :O

I've never had any trigger issues when working in the doghouse for bingo. The only issues I've had were the lack of knowledge to start certain triggers (not inadvertently starting them), like "when does the Ballad of the Windfish become available?" types of triggers.

That being said, I am not AT ALL knowledgeable about doghouse.

I mean, it's high time that somebody routed Glitched 100% (not me) :P

No one is banning bomb trigger. You can duplicate the seashells all you want with the bomb trigger, you just can't collect any of them :P

So there's been a lot of talk of using Bomb Triggers to duplicate seashells in the Seashell House. It seems now that we need to have a formal discussion about this and decide appropriately.

Video of glitch can be found here:

I am very much against the use of this glitch in 100% (big surprise). While using the bomb trigger is not against the rules in any way, I believe that duping the seashells is. There are a few rules in 100% that are, more or less, unspoken at this point. Mainly that you can not glitch to get your tunic and that you cannot duplicate Heart Pieces. I feel that duplicating seashells is akin to duplicating Heart Pieces. If you can duplicate one, why not the other? If we are worried simply about completing our inventory (getting the L2 sword in this case), why is there no restriction on how we complete our hearts?

To those who say we should be able to duplicate heart pieces, I must respond that we are losing the very essence of 100%. If anyone has the post that ZFG made regarding Ocarina of Time 100% (about how, if there was a glitch in SM64 that allowed you to get the same star over and over to get 120 stars) I would love to have it for this discussion. We must remember that 100% is a completely arbitrary category. Its sole existence is so we can show off more of the game while doing a speedrun. We decide what is and is not okay. If we allow something like duplicating Heart Pieces or Seashells, we lose a major portion of the game, and instead replace it with something rather boring and tedious. We lose the very essence of 100%.

The precedent with 100% has been always to "keep the essence of the category," which is why we do not glitch to get our tunic. Otherwise we would be missing out on a major portion of the game. It is the same reason why we do not do Heart Piece duping. [It is also the same reason why we do not use wrong warping and out of bounds, arguably, to complete this category.]

Lastly, here are the rules, as they stand on ZSR, which has been the ruleset we (I) have been following since about 2013

*"Beat the game with the 'No Wrong Warp' and 'No Out of Bounds' rulesets in effect.

100% requires getting all instruments, heart pieces, photographs, every item including the coloured tunic (either; runners choice) from the colour dungeon, including the boomerang which you get by completing the trading quest, and the three item capacity upgrades for bombs, arrows, and magic powder. You must also get the Level 2 sword (Sea Shell Sword) by collecting 20 of the Secret Shells. Although there are 26 sea shells in the game, only 20 are required to get the sword, so only 20 are required for 100%."" *

While there is very little language about seashells, I believe that the phrase "collecting 20 OF THE Secret Seashells," to me, implies "20 of the 26 Secret Seashells". If the phrasing had neglected any mention of the seashells at all, we might have a case (based on the rules) to not get them. If the phrasing had been "collect 20 seashells" then that would imply ANY 20. However, I think there was an implicit grouping that collecting 20 individual, different seashells is what is intended for this category.

Summary of points (For NOT allowing Seashell Duplication): -We do not allow duplication of Heart Pieces, so we should not allow duplication of Seashells -We would lose a major part of the category, which is one of the main points of 100% (to showcase as much of the game as possible) ---Precedent says to keep as much of the the essence of the category as possible (no glitch tunic, no HP duping) -(I believe) the rules had an implicit statement to collect 20 individual, different shells (- Seashell duplication is REALLY boring).

I would also like to say that I am against revisions of old rulesets / runs. (IE: Retroactively banning / adding something. Meaning we can make a rule like "collect all 26 individual seashells," since older 100% runs did not do this)

Discuss.

(PS: Don't take this the wrong way, but I thought this might be relevant and a little funny :P ) http://imgur.com/uqoO87D

Just got a 504 :(

How does Daylight Savings time affect these race times? (Serious question)

I love to be the THAT guy, but bingo goals change drastically depending on whether or not you WW D:

Yeah, and like I said, this doesn't need to be a long, drawn out thing. This could just be something that is decided right before each race, like, "Hey everyone cool with WW for this one? Yeah? Good." Just tossing it out there.

I have put a lot of thought into this today. No, I am not trying to open up a huge debate on rules, especially for something like bingo, but I think this idea will help out. If we don't want to do it, that's fine. If we all want to do it, that's cool too.

Basically, I think we should allow Wrong Warp in bingo.

In the first few minutes of All Instruments (AI), we get sword, shield, boots, bracelet, feather, (ocarina), and flippers. These are all key items for moving around in the overworld. If you got these items really fast, bingo becomes REALLY open-ended. Mabdulra has a very clear tutorial for AI, and the WW for the beginning is VERY easy (there is very little "don't touch the pixel" in it).

In addition, if we allowed WW, certain squares that we almost always used, we will have to think about whether or not we want to do them ("get tail key", "Complete D1", "Complete D2", usually, etc), and other squares that we would never do ("defeat dethyl") become a lot more likely to be done. Typically I am against WWing, but I think for bingo it's a good idea.

One of the arguments I had originally is that people who know doghouse will get a distinct advantage over those who don't. This is true. However, the reality is that no one really knows doghouse out of the current runners. Even I, who ran AI, don't know diddly squat about how the doghouse works. The only ones who would realistically get this advantage would be Mab, Deln (maybe), and Drenn. Even then, that's not a huge deal, to be honest.

I will outline all of the possibillities and let us all figure out what we think is best:

1)Disallow WW Pros: There is no advantage for certain runners. It is easy to explain. It's what we already have done. It "makes sense". Bingos could be longer. Cons: Certain bingo squares always get used, certain bingo squares never get used. The first 10 minutes of nearly everyone's bingo is the same. Removes a certain "open-endedness".

2. Allow WW: Pros: Allows a lot more freedom in bingo choices. Squares will be more accessible, etc. The basic WWs are not hard, and are readily documented Cons: Some people will not want to learn the WW's. It's a "rule" change. Advantage over some runners. Etc.

3. Allow certain WW's (get boots, feather, flippres, and dethyl): Pros: Removes that advantage from people who "really" know the doghouse. Gives the same freedomes as 2. Cons: Harder to explain. Is arbitrary. Same cons as above.

I like 2 and 3, obviously. (Probably 2 more than 3, although I would not be using any of the "advanced" WW's). Again, this is bingo and not a big deal. If we don't want to discuss, we do not need to. This is really not supposed to be a "drama" filled post. Just something I thought would improve something that is supposed to be fun. :)

What do y'all think?

Clear, concise explanation website Warr.

:P

A few more (since we don't have much color dungeon representation):

• Map for Color Dungeon
• Compass for Color Dungeon (or both put together)
• Defeat Stone Hinox (Color Dungeon)