Didn't see the second page of this thread, my B. I'll try to respond to some stuff.
[quote]Welll there is a very big difference between those categories and LS and that is the fact that LS begins where every other category begins, at the start of the game. Those other categories are more like NG+[/quote]
Yeah, this is a great point. It's part of the reason that a total "Cities" LB the way lelreset suggests is potentially problematic. A "Badlands" leaderboard on the main boards would be unique to every other category, misc or otherwise, in that it doesn't start at "new game" -- which is again why I believe these runs are practice categories, and the Category Extensions board is a great place to house these.
[quote]People? Less than 10 people are taking it seriously. We know the category has a lot of potential but it doesn´t mean the category is important (at least at all).[/quote]
Relatively speaking, it is one of the more active categories right now.
[quote]Subjective laws were put in place for WR attempts[/quote]
Is this an issue? If your time isn't competitive, should it still be held to the same regard as WR? I don't think there's a right answer for this; there's a couple different ways you could look at it.
One would be: it doesn't matter, people who aren't sub 6 don't need to restart the game every attempt because the impact is minor and you have more time save by just playing better.
Two would be: Yes, hold it to the same regard. Which is totally fair -- implementing the same standards for everyone. The argument against this would probably be that it raises the barrier to entry in a way that is, perhaps, unnecessary for new or learning players.
[quote]Just because i'm not playing categories that are significant to you doesn't mean i'm not active.[/quote]
Unfortunately you removed all your runs so there's no record of this claim, unless you want me to hunt down your YouTube channel, which is a bunch of random letters; so there's no real way to search for the runs themselves, either.
Either way, it seems you miss the point. I'm not challenging your authority on San Andreas; whatever authority either of us harbor is irrelevant. I'm making the statement that you seem to pop up from nowhere, see a few things that irk you, and then delete your runs and post a tirade without having a real conversation about any of this before deciding that doing something dramatic is necessary. It's not a matter of authority.
[quote]The difference between me and you also is I don't call out people for being assholes unless they call me out, because I am one myself, so you shouldn't either.[/quote]
This does not put you, or your arguments, above criticism. If you haven't noticed, I also do not put myself above criticism; so this just seems like projection. How I carry myself isn't the topic, so I'm not sure why you're going on about it.
[quote]It took me a week to find out Anti was cheating in SA while it took you a year. I suggested for the runners of 3/VC to check his game speed. Nothing happened apart from the same idiots laughing. Now a year later this is somehow BIG NEWS.[/quote]
I have already said that we made a mistake regarding this. Anti was friends with many in the community and we didn't anticipate him to do something so pointless as to cheat. He streamed his runs and spent loads of time playing -- why ruin that by making it all illegitimate? Your skepticism was warranted, and we were too trusting. The issue now is if we learn from it, or not.
[quote]So give me a reason to speedrun when i'm potentially competing to someone who is cheating and nobody is doing anything about it, and it is too late now.[/quote]
If you find something on FLYING, please let me or someone else know, because we've been unable to find evidence of cheating. If you want to do something about it, help us investigate. I know at least one drive of his (end of Robbing Uncle Sam) has been timed vs. Anti's cheated run, as well as your own run, and nothing was suspect.
Which leaves the possible conclusion of: he is cheating in ways that aren't visibly detectable. If you believe we need to put more pressure on him to provide proof, I believe that's fair; hence your frustration that nothing is being done. This is something we can consider pursuing, if it'll put these claims, and everyone's suspicions, to rest.
If he doesn't want to cooperate, we'd probably just have to remove his times. Right? In the interest of fairness and transparency, it seems like the thing to do.
[quote]A category's current activity should have no bearing on where it exists is your personal opinion and also the criteria is whatever KZ_FREW says, this is the criteria - do not push your personal opinions on other people.[/quote]
I explained this in the above post, but the board follows a pretty obvious philosophy that isn't my personal opinion; it was established as such before I got here. When adding a category to the main or misc boards, you would generally want the philosophy behind the organization to be retained. So, when we consider adding a category, the first thing we should consider is: does it make sense?
If you want to argue that the philosophy itself should be changed, that's perfectly legitimate, but to make the claim that it's my personal opinion and that I am shutting out other opinions is total conjecture. I don't think it's unreasonable to state that, as the boards are right now, adding LS is inconsistent to everything else.
[quote]Using words such as "objectively" "obviously" "criteria" does not save you from criticism, unfortunately. Good try though.[/quote]
I have never stated, or insinuated, that I am above criticism.
[quote]I do not see why people who voted for this are having a problem with me removing my own?[/quote]
Because you are a good player and it is a shame.
[quote]While you're at it, remove runs that have no videos on them, there are a lot.[/quote]
This is fair; the unfortunate thing is a lot of this can't be helped. Super old runs may not have videos anymore, even though they had working videos at the time and as such were verified. Should we remove them now that the video is no longer accessible?
"Is this an issue? If your time isn't competitive, should it still be held to the same regard as WR? I don't think there's a right answer for this; there's a couple different ways you could look at it."
Then why ban accidental cheats for everyone? I'll tell you why, because you people only see what's on the fucking surface, that's why, i'd say very few know about NG+ and very few care, as expected. Accidental cheats arguably have way less affect than NG+ stuff.
You still haven't answered why it was okay to ban ginput and not ban other mods that arguably give advantage.
You still haven't answered how you time runs when control can be gained on a black screen, are you a magician?
Once again, why speedrun & more importantly why care about this website when the leaderboard is made up of some subjective rules randoms made up?
You try to justify the decisions that are made, but you don't talk about the people who made these decisions, does anyone even know who they are and why this stuff is decided specifically by these very few people?
"without having a real conversation" - Then what threads did I just post in my post? Did you not see me posting in them? Selective hearing?
I have brought these things up so so many times, whether it was here or the discord and spoiler: nothing happened.
"How I carry myself isn't the topic,so I'm not sure why you're going on about it."
So you can say personal things about me, but I can't do that, I'm going on about it because you started this, it's funny how once you hear something that you don't want to, you backtrack to question the topic.
"If you find something on FLYING, please let me or someone else know, because we've been unable to find evidence of cheating"
I did let someone know, nearly a year ago as well, ironically. Mouse sprinting is retarded, they should have had him do a run with inputs, he has also should probably send over his handling file after the runs.
It is WAY too late now.
Whether I personally think he cheats or not doesn't matter, I don't think he does. What matters is people do nothing about past cheaters, as shown here. So what are the value of these leaderboards again? There is hardly any.
"I see nothing wrong with his runs" - You see nothing wrong because you don't try to, as I explained above why you don't want to. Caring about the surface. AGAIN.
"Should we remove them now that the video is no longer accessible?" Lol, yes, how can you know the run has adhered to the rules that were put in place in the past, or the current rules now if you can't see it?
Are you just going to bank on faith it happened, it kind of ridicules the concept of video verification, if these people still have videos they are free to re-submit them, no?
Flying has not proven anything. If are smart you can learn to hide a lot of forms of cheating:
He shows some mouse configuration program showing his scrolling without the mouse making noise: He could have recorded legitimate scrolling and played it back. He could have had his mouse miles away from the microphone. The thing is that these accusations were quite funny since this mouse is known/"known" from checking review videos to be silent when scrolling slowly (which you do in runs) and loud when scrolling fast. It started out very suspicious but was debunked fast.
He shows some files: Just edit the data in RAM. It is easy, but I will not give you a tutorial. :D You can ask for a RAM dump - he can temporarily revert changes and temporarily detach his manipulation program from the game.
He shows his taskmanager: You can hide processes. Remember that Flying is knowledgable about computers.
A hand cam cannot be fooled, afaik. I don't know if those/some of them have variable delay, though, so that the game feed and handcam feed do not match up. Also, you would need two of them. ^^ That is something I would only force cheaters to go through, though. ^^
E: We can catch dumb cheaters, though, who mod vehicles that are used in W-only drives to drive way faster. :D And then believe it was just a botched game or something and call it a day.
[quote]Then why ban accidental cheats for everyone? I'll tell you why, because you people only see what's on the fucking surface, that's why[/quote]
Well, no, it's not something I've considered and it's a good point. I wasn't mod when we cracked down on this, but if we're going to subjectively "relax" on the rules for newbies, it's also reasonable to forgive accidental cheats alongside NG+ effects.
Curious on your opinion for this though: RoK accidentally entered a HESOYAM cheat the other day. He was on the way to a bustedwarp, so the health and armor didn't really matter, but obviously he got $250K. But nonetheless it is a much more impactful cheat than accidentally spawning a Rancher, or forcing sunny weather. Should this run be considered illegitimate? Would it be forgiven, unless he made use of this advantage? (i.e. buying a shitload of SMG ammo for Local Liquor Store)
[quote]You still haven't answered why it was okay to ban ginput and not ban other mods that arguably give advantage.[/quote]
What other mods? You mean like windowers and dinput8?
Honestly I'd be fine with unbanning GInput, but I've not done it yet because we haven't had the discussion and I don't just want to upend the leaderboards based on my personal opinion. I am trying to be objective and fair. I am not perfect, though, and that's why it is good to have these talks -- perspective helps.
[quote]You still haven't answered how you time runs when control can be gained on a black screen, are you a magician?[/quote]
We can change this, because you're right. Timing start on cutscene skip is easy enough to implement because the autosplitter already does this.
[quote]Once again, why speedrun & more importantly why care about this website when the leaderboard is made up of some subjective rules randoms made up?[/quote]
Speedrun for fun. You don't have to care for this website or LB, obviously, but the rules are always going to be subjective because this is a hobby and the rules are decided based on what we think is fair and fun. I wouldn't call anyone "random", they've been around for a while; but if you're saying that people shouldn't be given free pass because of longevity I will agree with you.
[quote]You try to justify the decisions that are made, but you don't talk about the people who made these decisions[/quote]
Because I'm trying to be fair and objective. In doing so, it makes sense to evaluate things on their own merit instead of who said it. If you want people in charge who have their ear to the ground and are involved with the game, I grant you that -- it's what I'm trying to do.
[quote]I have brought these things up so so many times, whether it was here or the discord and spoiler: nothing happened.[/quote]
These frustrations are fair and I have certainly been vocal about other things in the past (different things than you, perhaps)
[quote]So you can say personal things about me, but I can't do that, I'm going on about it because you started this, it's funny how once you hear something that you don't want to, you backtrack to question the topic.[/quote]
You're probably right. I am making an active effort to leave personal stuff out of this post. It's not necessary and will only make both of us angry and continue the pattern of nothing being resolved. If I spoke out of turn, that's on me. I will work on it.
[quote]I did let someone know, nearly a year ago as well, ironically. Mouse sprinting is retarded, they should have had him do a run with inputs, he has also should probably send over his handling file after the runs.[/quote]
To me, (and correct me if I'm wrong), this is a complicated matter with no real answer at hand. How do we ensure flying is "clean"? Patrick stated a bunch of reasons why this won't be easy. Hand cam is a good idea, but won't catch everything. If anyone has ideas, I'd love to hear them. For now, I'm just trying to put it out there that I'm listening and I understand this and something should be done.
[quote]why not make AM a proper all missions category like in III and VC?[/quote]
Vice City's AM is equally arbitrary, though. No Chopper Checkpoints, no Trial by Dirt/Test Track/PCJ Playground, no RC races, no stadium events, not even Boatyard is in that run because Checkpoint Charlie doesn't "change the name of the save file"
That said, if people want an All Missions category with more stuff in it, I am not opposed to this.
[quote]he won't send his scripts to Patrick who asked multiple times[/quote]
This is fair. We should have pressed him harder because the burden of proof is on him -- not us -- as he's been dishonest with us in the past. As I stated above, how to move forward on this is pretty sticky (IMO), so I will certainly listen to ideas and opinions on this.
[quote]When was the last time Jolzi and Gael showed any interest in this game?[/quote]
Jolzi and Gael are series mods and were appointed as such years and years ago, when this website was "speedrunrecords.com" -- this is why their modding is still "in effect" here on the SA boards. They occasionally verify runs, but don't really do much else except for issues that pertain to multiple/all games in the series. One of your complaints earlier was consistency across the LBs, series mods are one way for the games to be tied together in that sense. If there was an issue that spanned multiple games, I wouldn't really be able to do much about it unless SA was involved. Folks like Jolzi, Gael, Odyssic, Powdinet would have more say in these matters as they're the foundation to everything that's been built up over the years. Do you feel as though they're ineffective in these roles?
Because I don't want another long thread with nothing to show for it at the end of all this (lol), here's what I'm hearing:
More consistent rules and enforcement --- As it pertains to non-competitive runs, as well as the mods/tools that are allowed Change timing start FLYING stuff Inactive leaderboard moderators Remove runs with no proof
And potentially:
All Missions discussion
Am I missing anything?
Backing lelresetfeg on the flying situation. Reminder that he tried to submit AT LEAST 2 "TAS'd" runs, intentionally, and EVEN HID A SPLICE ("dream frame" stuff, and there could be more that people just didn't bother to search for). People may say that english is not his 1st language or whatever, but if you ever watch his stream for more than 5 minutes you can hear that he has more than basic understanding of english and he knew exactly what he was doing submitting those runs. How his later runs were accepted just because he streamed is a big question mark. He should've been at least temporary suspended from submitting runs on the lb.
He showed his folder.
It's not hard to have more than 1 install of the game on a PC. I would be surprised that speedrunners that run this game seriously don't have more than 1 install instance of the game on PC.
Mouse scrolling.
Besides the sound stuff which is still a bit questionable - never "fast scrolling", even randomly, throughout all of his attempts - the fact that he "rebinds" in mouse software and not ingame is a huge question mark.
Yeah, the whole Flying situation was a mess and wasn't handled well. Tho, it is never too late to ask for more proof whenever he does his next runs.
The GTA:SA community has been deteriorating over a long period of time. Many top runners are not currently present on the leaderboard. This issue has not been seriously addressed yet, but an attempt will be made to remedy it now.
As of this news post, the San Andreas leaderboard will function in
