Final Fantasy VII Forum  /  NMG No-Slots Discussion
  Toast_MattToast_Matt
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I've been interested in doing no-major-glitches runs or something similar. I've talked to quite a few people to see what kind of rules they think would fit and have gotten answers all over the map. What's a glitch, what's a major glitch, what's a skip, etc. I wanted to start a more formal discussion here to see what people think.

There are a few "categories" people have shown interest in including no-major-glitches, no-major-skips, and "classic route" which most say would not allow guard skip, kalm skip, or CC skip but WOULD allow Hojo/Midgar skip. I've been doing glitchless runs so regardless of rules, it will qualify. I don't think fully glitchless would be a good category since defining the rules would be very difficult and, if it became a category, it would a nightmare to verify runs.

Whether or not this ever becomes a real category, I'd like a community consensus for a set of rules. For years 100% was not an official category but people mostly agreed on rules and plenty of people ran it.

Properly defining rules is challenging, especially if we want it future proof from certain types of glitches/skips. For a no-major-skips route that does not allow guard/kalm/cc/hojo skips, Ace_Zephyr suggested using the "game-moment" value and possibly requiring each value to occur during the run. A similar approach would be to list things that must be completed (Airbuster, Aerith playground scene, Kalm flashback, Gi Nattack, Proud Clod, etc)

Other than guard/kalm/cc/hojo skip, what else do people think should not be allowed? What rule sets are people interested in?

Some types of skips/glitches to consider:
- Paralysis dodge (Jessie skip, bar skip, many others)
- Moving invisible characters (Junon FMV skip, Hojo skip)
- Menu skipping encounters or triggers (Playground skip, Zolom cutscene)
- Skipping scripted encounters (Turks skip in raid on midgar)

The most debated topic has been whether or not Stinger skip should be allowed.

There is also a discussion about this in The Lab discord.

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PROPOSED RULES #1

This is from Deathtome's reply. No skips that forward the story progression. Meaning glitches like the small ones in Wall Market are allowed, but not story skips like:

1. Guard Skip (which skips portions up to Wall Market)
2. Kalm Skip (which skips portions up to Junon)
3. Cosmo Canyon Skip (which skips Cosmo Canyon).
4. Midgar Return Skip (which skips entire Midgar revisit).

This is an explicit list of things that are not allowed. If there are other skips we want banned, we could explicitly ban them as well. One issue I see with this is if a new skip is found we'll have to decide whether it forwards the story or not (maybe something like if we found a way to skip Nibelheim and Materia Keeper)

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PROPOSED RULES #2

d13sel proposed this rule definition: "proceed through the game's story in a sequential order, as defined by the game moment variable" This is similar to what Deathtome describes in his reply but does it based on the "game moment" value. This results in some small skips like Barret skip not being allowed but some bigger ones like Stinger Skip and Junon FMV to be allowed. The memory address for the game moment value is 9D288 and is 2 bytes.

Here is a list of game moments courtesy of petfriendamy: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kdMpPwFwTa6VFLb2ilOFLFWCcUroAZhEB3Uj2qgfIIk/edit#gid=0

This would result in the following (probably missing some):
Allowed:
-Jessie
-Bar
-Photo
-Zolom cutscene
-Stinger
-Shell Hut
-Junon FMV
-Corel
-Save Crystal

Not Allowed:
-Guard
-Playground
-Barret
-Kalm
-Cosmo Canyon
-Hojo
-Parachute
-Turks

nitumiawnitumiaw, PskallerPskaller and 5 others like this. 
  DeathtomeDeathtome
(edited: )

I have one way to solve this issue. No skips that forward the story progression. Meaning glitches like the small ones in Wall Market are allowed, but not story skips like:

1. Guard Skip (which skips portions up to Wall Market)
2. Kalm Skip (which skips portions up to Junon)
3. Cosmo Canyon Skip (which skips Cosmo Canyon).
4. Midgar Return Skip (which skips entire Midgar revisit).

You don't even need to call it glitchless, just call it classic% or story% or another clever name, but the small glitches can be allowed that gain a few seconds to at least involve some type of skill like all the possible ones not mentioned here. All the other glitches are done in the same room. Junon FMV skip doesn't really forward the story progression, you still continue where Barret should be after the FMVs anyway (So I don't care if it gets banned or not).

So just need to ban those skips I mentioned above. I would definetly run Classic% and don't dare to skip Midgar revisit. There is finally a reason to include it in the speedrun and Yuffie will enjoy double damage on mechanical bosses like Diamond Weapon + Proud Clad (Ramuh + Elemental). (I would run Yuffie with 2x Cut and Power Wrist + Tifa with Deathblow and curse ring). 😃 Smoking the bosses like a champ, thanks and good bye. 😃

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  deano0bambino0deano0bambino0
(edited: )

well you know what i think already, but for the sake of the forum I think glitchless is impossible. It's really difficult to define a glitch and i always said it something in the programming that was not intended which follows for more discussion. I believe clear cut ruling if the only way. I suggested before as using fmvs to assist with ruling as to skip a large proportion of the game will include skipping some fmv of some sort. Eg. Air buster - the fmv where cloud falls down as reactor blows, kalm - the scene where seph is at the jenova tank etc etc. It can be full proof. Junon skip in this scenario will not be skipped but for a long run i think you want any break you can take... but this can also be based on what suits step count and can be treated as an exception. If pc then no warps or debug of any kind and tbh psx should include this even though we established its impossible to access debug room but at this point you rather not take the risk as kalm skip was deemed impossible and this game has proved time and time again to prove everyone wrong.

With other skips, bar skip, stinger skip, barret skip etc they should be allowed i feel. One because they can be hit or miss to get some skips anyway like certain paralysis dodges can be done accidentally. Stinger skip can be done purely accidentally. Skipping encounters can be. Whos stopping me form accidentally walking in a speed run. Such trivial skips are impossible to be policed. The main skips you can easily police (aka the big four- guard skip, kalm, cosmo canyon, hojo skip) you can include maybe one or two douchey skips if you like (playground skip) but then it might seem biased and i feel that some element of skill to pull of certain skips should surely be rewarded.

I think we spoke about any skips which are over a minute also which could be banned but theres not too many of those i believe. So for that reason rather the rules saying you cant do this or that because you cant cover every scenario put what you can do and anything that falls out of that is treated as banned. The best way to put an order of fmvs and/or bosses which must be defeated in a certain order (i say fmv to include kalm skip and with fmv or text you can be very specific. Anything skipped between the checklist is fair game. Toast_matt already had something written out on discord which was like for eg. Opening train scene, guard scorpion, jumping on the train scene, flash back with tifa in sector 7. That means i can do jessie skip still. if we want to banned jessie skip we can put "look at the train map with jessie fmv" and we can avoid that skip. In other words its also using aces logic of the game moment and also we can include key items later on, must get temple of ancients, must get lunar harp etc. This checklist could assist all runners and mods of src with what can be skipped without fear and what clearly cant be skipped.

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  zSoloSzzSoloSz

No Guard Skip / Kalm Skip / CC skip / Return to midgar seems like the alternate category people are looking for IMO. it would pretty much be a beginner% / Classic% ?? with no major skips and following the story how it should be. probably be the least daunting on new runners looking to get into the game also. im all for keeping all the minor glitches throughout the run Jessie skip/ barret skip / bar skip / MK 7777s etc.

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  ptownrockptownrock
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I 100% agree with Deathtome’s take on this.

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  PrimitiveDeathTVPrimitiveDeathTV

No guard, kalm, ccskip or midgar raid is basically all bosses imo it would make it very similar at least but thats just my opinion on this

 
  zSoloSzzSoloSz

doesnt all bosses use kalm skip aswell as warps/debug room??

 
  deano0bambino0deano0bambino0
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thats pc which has the warps, but i said to toast its similiar to all bosses no slots no warps but he said well u got turks encounter in gongaga which is no big deal but u'd have to do wutai which is like another 15 mins, plus the pagoda, plus gelneka, and then do ruby and emerald so its quite a big chunk you miss out tbh... u'd need to source grind and get witem, and do lost number as well... so its alot you miss out on even though doesnt seem like you do. If you disagree tthen if you are doing all bosses you might as well do a hundo... same logic applies

 
  DeathtomeDeathtome
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In my post I didn't talk about Playground Skip, but that one saves about 1:20 and I think it should be allowed since you don't skip any areas while running. You just skip the talk with Aeris. It's a 50% chance to get it if you have the skill to set it up correctly, which I think should be rewarded in case you get it.

Barret FMV Junon Skip should be there too since you don't really lose any field map running.

We don't want to take away all the skills of saving time, like the parachute descent in Midgar Raid and all other minor glitches that saves time. It takes skill to perform some of them. We have eliminated the big 4s that saves a lot of time, and it's easy for people to know what's banned if it's a small list of only 4 banned skips. The skips that are still allowed DOES NOT SKIP ANY FIELD MAPS (where you control your character). Sure the Playground skip removes dialogue but you still run through that screen as normal (without text) and same with Barret FMV skip in Junon (you still get to control Barret as you normally would without skipping any running sections with him). That's how I was thinking. Also the Midgar Parachute section I don't think is a glitch; you just control where Cloud will land.

Cait Sith's LV 2 Slots: Banned
1. Guard Skip: Banned
2. Kalm Skip: Banned
3. Cosmo Canyon Skip: Banned
4. Midgar Raid Skip: Banned

Easy category rules and people are not confused as to what rules are allowed. It gets too convuluted if you start listing all glitches that are allowed or not and suddently you might perform one on accident due to muscle memory. Haha, nah I think the big 4 skips are enough to bring us back to the roots of the category. While Midgar Raid was never there, it's a nice inclusion. I love to play that part out for once. 🙂

I think the name is good too "Classic%". I think it fits well and I hope we can agree on this. If any other big skip eventually gets found like Temple of the Ancients Skip (then we just add it as 5th banned rule). 🙂

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  ptownrockptownrock
(edited: )

I like the simplicity of the definition as well, getting really technical with the details will not help the category, only hurt it since mods will have to check every little thing. Although I might amend Midgar Raid Skip: Banned to also add you cannot skip the Turks fight. I did a glitchless race with Toast recently and he unknowingly skipped the Turks fight and didn't realize it, apparently you can bypass the trigger.

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  Toast_MattToast_Matt
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I think those rules are would be great and most people would enjoy this kind of run with just those particular skips banned. The problem myself and some other people have been trying to overcome is future-proofing the rules so any new big skip that's found is already covered. It would be nice to avoid requiring rules updates when a new skip is found and not leaving room for debate about if a new skip is allowed, but it's hard to accomplish. Using the game moment avoids all that but as you said, it's convoluted and makes it hard for people to understand why certain skips are allowed vs banned.

I like the "don't skip any field maps" idea too. That seems to cover everything for this classic% definition and sounds pretty future-proof.

Since this isn't an official category, being future proof is less of a concern. I'm not sure how many people are interested in running it if it's not an official category, but I'll probably do runs with those Classic% rules. The other skips people seem to disagree on are playground skip, stinger skip, and junon fmv skip so I'll probably avoid those for now in case this does become an official category and they end up being banned. Personally I think they're all fine.

I agree with ptown that Turks skip should be banned

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  nitumiawnitumiaw

+1 for game-moment value rule.

Story% / Linear%

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