PolandThe sound and showing the pack rules are not enforced.
Both are things that increase the legitimacy of the run and are nice to have, but would be unreasonable to reject a run for the lack of. The illusion of their necessity is just to minorly increase the amount of people that do these things, as if it wasn't "required" that amount would lower to 0. Thus those "rulings" are there just to minorly influence the overall state of the leaderboard videos, whilst not being actual real rules.
If anybody thinks that having such "pretend-rules" on the board is idiotic I can 100% see that. But they have served the function well and no ones getting hurt so I never saw much wrong with it.
A 3 Arena Wins category has been made. For now it is just a test as there is a whole board restructuring that would be made if it ended up being a success. But since idk if that will happen I'm putting it off until later.
Huh, I didn't consider this perspective up until now. I guess it still is mostly up in the air if the abandon/not experiences are sufficiently different. Maybe I was a bit too naive thinking that disallowing abandoning runs would lead people to play with more consideration, rather than switching to a more tedious form of grinding.
I do agree on the multiple wins but I do think that the rules should be made in such a way that all 3 of the runs are done to maximize the chances of winning, without the option to grind the first win. And so far I haven't came up with an idea on how to do that. One idea I had is to make it 4 wins except the first win isn't timed. The problem with that is that it majorly increases the difficulty of an already very difficult run.
The Double Arena Win category has been recently removed off the boards as I have come to terms with it being an impulse add and not an actualy good category. Flawed in concept and not sufficiently non-trivial. I'm sorry for this unfortunate timing for you, you can still run the single win cat if that's any remedy.
With time I majorly warmed up to the idea of a non-abandon hat categories to at least try to nab at the everpresent RNG of the runs.
Additionally I would like to add that I don't believe challenge runs of any kind actually require skill any more so than the current standard form of running. Even with only being able to use 3 pets you'll still restart at every opportunity until you get what you need to complete the challenge quickly.
I am really unsure of how would we go about making a trulry skill-based category. Maybe it is impossible, this is SAP after all.
Thanks for responding cleanup! To answer your question: the site rules prohibit hosting categories not tied to speedrunning. But in practice it is feasible to just make one anyway and hope it flies under the radar for a long enough time to gain sufficiently many runs. At which point it would make site staff apprehensive about removing the runs from the site, in spite of them being of a prohibited nature. Whether it is worth it to walk such a tightrope? I'd lean on no, but if you trulry believe for that to be the way to go then it can be discussed.
If we were to go through with such a thing, your first suggestion would be the thing to try. The second one not necesarilly so much since there would be no great way of verifying the completion of the challenge in any other way than doing it all in one sitting, which I do not believe is feasible.
Lastly, your comment on the 3 in a row category is apt. The original concept was to reward consistent play rather than grinding, but setting it up the way I described would mix the two, and it's not the best of both worlds like I thought, rather the worst. I still think a multi-win category of some sort should be in place in some way, but I do agree that the starting point would need to be determined in a different way.
As I see people really do not care much about this, which is really diheartening because I do not want to be the final arbiter of what the board is. The way that players will interact with the leaderboard should be decided by the players. But since nobody wants to get involved the only way to go is for me to make all the decisions. imo that's very much the unideal situation, but if that's what need to be done then that's what'll happen.
I'll give this thread 1 more week and if by the end I don't see any objections or discussion I'll implement the changes. Deleting the Double Arena Win category and implementing a new one in it's place of Non-Abandon Triple Arena Win with Standard and Expansion variants.
Huh, I actually didn't consider it from that perspective, the queue being different and all. That would make it make more sense but I'm still a bit hesitant if it's different enough.
We won't make categories all willy and illy, each one has to actually have a proper purpose, and I'm not fully convinced that this isn't arbitrary and that it is sufficiently different to warrant a whole new two categories. (Standard and Expansion)
With the newest patch drop I realise how really important it is for this leaderboards categories to be set in stone as early as possible. And since it has been here for quite some time I have a number of thoughts that I would really ask all of you to consider and share your own to help shape the look of the board for the final time.
First things first: the expansion pack. I never would've expected for there to be such small interest in the expansion pack categories. Looking at the amazing competition that standard pack has gotten it really does suprise me that nearly noone is interested in the, basically, free real estate that is the expansion pack category. Now it's not going to be deleted or altered obviously, it's just as valid as standard pack, but it does feed into my next point regarding...
Double Arena Win category, and multi-win categories in general. The main issue with SAP speedrunning is obviously the RNG nature of the game and the necessity of hard grinding, which is unideal. One clear way to ammend that is to have a category that reward consistent play and being able to bring 10 wins on command. Now the current Double Arena Win category was ment to be that, but it was a poor attempt as I explained, the expansion pack is not very popular.
But the thing is, that I don't think it's even too bad of an idea. Besides Double Arena Win being a multi-run category it also rewards expertise in both of the animal pack, which I think is really cool.
But besides that, if we were to implement a proper multi-win category with the standard/expansion dichotomy, what should it be? Just X runs in a row? What number? It should be high enough for the category to trulry reward ability to win on command. (and make note how that will only count for runs 2 and onwards cause the first one can still be grinded). But also it should be low enough to be feasible to do. Would 3 be too hard, would 2 be too low? (just 1 on-demand arena win)
I saw someone do a run of getting X amount of points, which would make the run possible to do for everyone while still rewarding consistently getting high wins. But it would be a nuisance to have to keep track of the points. Or would it? We could make it so you have to show the count before and after the run to verify, though it would still be a nuisance for the runner during the run to keep track of how many they need to complete the run. Also, what should be the amount?
Are there other goals that aren't too arbitrary that would aid in rewarding consistency in a run?
What should happen to the Double Arena Win category, is it ok to leave as is?
All of these questions need to be considered if we are to decide how to move forward with this leaderboard. I know this is a lot, but I hope I wasn't too rambly and was able to express my concerns and thoughts on this matter. I hugely, hugely encourage you all to share your thoughts on these topics. They will be the things that will decide what ends up happening.
Well, the double win is kinda ment to be the non-abandon category. Doing one win no-abandon I don't think makes much sense cause it jsut influences the way you do the runs, but not the runs itself. Once you get a desired start the run becomes identical to Arena Win. So the only difference is that you do less runs.
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Actually, I have an idea. About the patch reseting the leaderboard thing.
Look at this board https://www.speedrun.com/kobolds_catacombs You can see that it has one category called "Dungeon Run" and a second called "Single Class" with the single class category having 10 different subcategories.
What it is, is that you can do a dungeon run, with any of the ten classes, and that is what the 10 subcategories in the second category are for. BUT, at the same time there is the first category, which COMBINES ALL of the runs from the second category. Meaning every run is in the first category, and in the proper subcategory of the second category. So you have 1 board for ALL RUNS EVER DONE and then a second sorted by the class.
How about we do a similar thing with the patch notes? There will be one board with all runs across all patches ever done, which will be unfair since some patches bring advantages others don't, but then you ALSO have an another category which has all the patches sorted in neat subcategories.
idk if I explain this well or even if this is good idea. What do y'all think?
The new update is an absolute gamechanger, especially for us. The skip name select feature and being able to make speeding up the battles twice as effecting as up to this point are both massive changes to the speedrun and I think this is the time we need to do something about the update thing.
Here is my suggestion, there will be a new subcategory made of game version, and whenever an update comes out that has massive changes relevant to the speedrun, a new category will be made for that version, with the date of the patch being the name. The problem with this is that basically the entire leaderboard will be wiped every time a big update comes out cause you can't play past versions.
Opinions?
PM, the 20 win category is going to get added in a weeks time or so.
I did think of doing some kind of a 2-win category. First 10 wins being the standard rng highroll but after that you actually need to be consistent and get 10 wins back-to-back the very next run.
Having one be standard and 1 expansion is a good addition to that. Just one thing is that I'm not fully sure if there is interest and/or if it's too hard. @rolltorest Do you think you could make a proof of concept to the category? 2 back-to-back 10 win runs with different packs, you can start with whichever you want.
And besides that, is anybody else interested in such a category? It will be harder than the two current ones but it's very interesting.
@Beenee this most certainly has been on my radar for a long time but while it may seem super dumb..... I don't know what the patches are named. I do not know how to distinguish between them. If you can give me some good system for the current, past and possibly future game versions it will be added as a subcategory.
@rolltorest How about this?
Please do not hesitate to mention your thoughts regarding any aspect of this board here. I am a very active moderator and will take everything into account to try and improve our speedrunning experience.
