Threads
pikashy5 years ago

There's been discussion in the smash 64 speedrunning community about the potential of merging "versions" together. I'll separate them in order of priority:

------------------------------ 1. MERGING VC INTO ITS REGIONS ------------------------------

The current layout of VC is flawed in so many ways. VC actually has multiple different versions mixed into one, as each region (NA, J, PAL) has its own VC version, and are all put in the same leaderboards. For what it's worth, the VC version and the N64 console version are essentially identical games, save for an announcer screen difference. The proposed solution, which seems to be generally agreed upon in the Smash 64 speedrunning community, is to merge VC into its own individual regions, while "subtracting" away the time difference lost in the announcer screen (currently estimated to 25 seconds). This way, VC runs will be displayed on the same leaderboards as the N64 console runs of the same region, and on an equal playing field to N64 console runs.

The one thing that cannot be compared exactly between versions is the lag during the game that the N64 experiences, while VC does not. I compared various instances of potential lag advantages between NA and VC under normal circumstances (e.g. Master Hand moves), and most seemed to be mostly identical (if a difference exists, it's extremely minor). The only instance that would truly cause a difference is if, say, a Charizard spawns on Polygon Team, or Fire Flowers are used on that stage. That said, both those instances are not common occurrences, and both are 100% avoidable by the runner if played properly.

For bonus mode runs, all runs are ran with In-Game time, so both the N64 and VC versions would end up with the exact same time, meaning bonus mode runs are essentially unaffected by this decision.

So the current plan is to merge VC into its individual regions (NA, J, PAL), while "subtracting" the time difference of the announcer screens, and having 3 "versions" on the same leaderboard.

------------------------------ 2. MERGING PAL AND NA REGIONS ------------------------------

This next step is assuming step 1 does pass, but is split on whether or not it should be done.

After further comparison, PAL and NA run at the exact same "speed". Having looked at several PAL runs, the game runs at the exact same speed as the NA version, meaning that the 50 FPS vs 60 FPS speed difference doesn't really affect this game. So in terms of that, there does seem to be a valid argument to merge the two regions together.

That said, there are version specific differences, notably character-specific differences, that do give one version an advantage over another depending on the character ran. Some of these differences don't affect a character's time at all, while others create a large difference (notably Link). These version differences are a good argument to keep the two versions separated.

Furthermore, bonus mode runs will be affected by this change, something that should absolutely be taken into account (and is a large reason why I'm currently leaning towards not merging the two). The character-specific differences will have a major impact on several character's bonus mode runs, again, notably Link being potentially the biggest difference. If this change is made on the Classic mode side, the Bonus mode side will be impacted as well.

If this step passes, we'd have all versions (excluding J) in one leaderboard, with J in a separate leaderboard (we coud then discuss merging J as well, but the community seems heavily against merging J). If this doesn't pass, then we will have NA, J, and PAL as the three versions all separated into their own leaderboard.

This is the current state of the conversations of the leaderboard changes.

If anyone has any opinion on this, please post your opinions here. If there is nothing that is said against the merging of VC and NA, then that will happen in the next couple of days. On the other hand, merging NA and PAL is still an ongoing discussion (I'm undecided, and have gone back and forth several times myself), so if you have any input on that, absolutely say what you think.

GoodleShoes likes this
pikashy5 years ago

Hello everyone, I'm pikashy, a smash 64 speedrunner.

One thing I've been doing for the Smash 64 speedrunning community over the last 6 months or so is "Top 4" videos, where I take the top 4 runs of a certain category, and make a video showing them in a "race"-like setting against each other. Videos I've made so far are in this playlist:

For 2019, I'm thinking of branching out and start doing "Top 4" videos of other speedrun games as well. I was thinking of doing OoT Any% as my first non-smash "Top 4" video, as it is a popular category, and is a good length of time for this type of video (not too long, not too short). I won't be making the video until sometime in early January, so that gives about a month for people to try to get the best run they can and try to get into the "Top 4" video.

Is this an idea you guys are interested in? Would you like for me to go ahead and make a "Top 4" video for OoT Any% in January?

One rule I have is that being in the video is going to be entirely voluntary, and if a runner doesn't want to be in it, then I will not include them. If the community would like for me to make a "Top 4" video, but one runner in the top 4 does not want to be in it, then I will take the next runner instead. Your run is your run, and unless you give me permission to use it, I don't feel I should be using it.

Let me know what you think. If I am posting this in the wrong place, or if it would be better to be posted elsewhere, let me know, and I'll post there instead.

Bit, Torje and 2 others like this
pikashy5 years ago

Hello, I am pikashy, a supermod and WR holder for all "main" categories for Super Smash Bros 64.

Smash 64 already exists on the leaderboards here: https://www.speedrun.com/ssb64/full_game (I am a supermod and WR holder for all "main" categories). However, it has been requested by several runners (with no objections) to change the board layout to a "table" format (similar to https://www.speedrun.com/wr64 ). We have already outlined the majority of what we want on the leaderboards. The only remaining decisions we need to make depend on what is possible to do on this site (most notably if there is a way to have a drop down menu that can let you select a different version to display on the table).

As far as I understand, due to the complete layout change we plan on making, at the current moment, we would have to remove every run from the leaderboards, make the changes, then put all the runs back on. Given the large number of runs submitted (including obsoleted runs), I was looking for a better solution.

I was thinking of having a "new" leaderboards in place so that we can make the changes, then transfer the runs over once we're happy with the changes we have in place. Once everything is transferred over, we'd delete the old leaderboards, and continue with the new one.

If there is an easy way to do these changes without making a new leaderboard, I am open to trying out any other method. If not, is it possible to create a "new" leaderboard while we make the changes?

Note: We've tried this once before, trying to use a new leaderboards to make a change. However, one of the runners involved in that leaderboard making process (leaving the name anonymous) wanted changes to go his way, so he did his own thing, and then submitted everything with an incomplete leaderboards, resulting in two leaderboards for probably close to a year. This won't happen this time, as we already know what we want to have, so the transition should be rather quick.

Thank you for any help you are able to offer

pikashy

<(^o^)>

pikashy7 years ago

Is there any reason to keep the Japanese version on the leaderboards?

Nobody runs on the Japanese version. Aside from one runner who submitted runs 2 months ago, the last person to submit a run was 9 months ago. The people who said they would do runs only on the Japanese version did a few runs, then never came back to the game. Aside from Falcon Very Easy, almost every category has one or two runs submitted to them, and some categories are completely blank.

On top of that, aside from 5 or so categories, none of the times are optimized in any way. The Japanese version is considered faster than the NA version, yet almost every time on the Japanese version doesn’t even come close to the NA version time, even from the same runner. Almost every runner who has tried both versions does not like doing runs on Japanese, and much prefers doing runs on the NA version.

Nobody runs on Japanese, most of the times are not even close to being optimized, and most people don’t enjoy running on the Japanese version. Is there any reason to keep the Japanese version on the leaderboards?

InprisonedShadow likes this
pikashy7 years ago

When we transfer a run to the new leaderboard, should we delete the run on the old leaderboard? I think we should, as it will help us figure out which runs have not been transferred over yet.

pikashy7 years ago

For now, while we edit and change the leaderboards, submit runs here:

http://www.speedrun.com/ssb64old

once we finish the leaderboard changes, all runs will be submitted here.

pikashy7 years ago

Lets keep conversations about creating or changing the leaderboards here for now.

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