So, since I will be doing a run using this glitch, we are gonna have to sort out what we are doing with the categories.

I have heard people talking as if there definitely will be a cateogry split: 100% and 100% no source requirements (NSR), where the regular 100% bans the use of RHA.

Well in that case this could be useful, since any item you lose through this process can be collected again. It seems that items spawn if and only if they are not in your inventory from what I have seen. So to make use of this it is a simple matter of finding a setup that is consistent that will result in a decent inventory. Even if you get a bad one, you can always just reset and try again.

It is pretty funny though since this is basically RBA. I think it has something to do with losing your hat, but not quite sure how exactly it effects the inventory. Maybe it has something to do with the object slot of the fire that hits you, which might explain the apparent randomness.

There is a slight problem with this glitch though. If you activate it, you automatically lose your hat, and once the hat is lost, hat throw does not work, regardless of whether you have hat throw or not (sometimes you lose it due to the glitch, sometimes not). Without the ability to do hat throw, some stars are no longer obtainable. This would make it impossible to do 100% with this glitch unless you already collected every star that requires hat throw, at which point it probably wouldn't be faster to do the glitch unless there is some way to get your hat back.

Also those fire things don't exist on the latest version so this glitch is exclusive to earlier versions.

Also I think the items you get/lose depend on which fire you hit. The only problem is that it also gives different results for hitting different parts of the same fire, so it depends on which segment of fire you get hit by.

For something like that, though, it would preferable that the rules are sorted out before someone does a run of it, so that we don't end up being forced to make the rules such that the run is in accordance with them.

For the 171 stars from finished save file idea, you could use star display to remove all the stars you collected once you have all the powerups, and then have a 0 star file with all powerups and start it from there. Then you won't have the problem of it being hard to verify. I guess it might also be nice to start with 2000 coins in that case to cut down on coin farming. Once you have the file, you can just copy it every time you want to do a new run, so this process only has to be done once. Then we could just call the category "100% new game plus".

The reason they aren't separate is because getting the red coin star in Bowser's Tall Tall Mountain is about the same speed as doing the bully clip to skip the red coin star. I think the current consensus is that getting the red coin star is faster than skipping it, so the optimal any% strategy for the game, as far as people who run the game are concerned, is to do 1 star.

So while technically the game can be completed with 0 stars, we can save time by collecting a star, so in a "0 star" run, the best thing to do is collect a star.

Unless you are suggesting that in the rules of 0 star we specifically forbid people from collecting stars (like a low% category instead of an any% category), it makes no sense to split the categories.

With Zako's proposal to add categories for any% in addition to any% ISC, I think there are too many categories to display them in the way they currently are. I think we should stick with 3 types of categories (+miscellaneous) and have those further subdivided into others similar to how SR8 is divided into runs of v1.1 and v1.2, or games with fixed warps/no fixed warps. For example, we can have the 3 main category types be "custom series challenge" (maybe find a better name than that, but that refers to things like scrubs/standard challenge), then "main series challenges" (current apprentice/master) and finally "full series challenges" (since the series is not complete, these don't yet exist). Then for each type they can be split into any%, any% ISC, and 100%.

I think organizing the categories like that would make the leaderboard less cluttered, and then more categories can be added without having to have a ton of categories (if the any% categories get added that would be 6 categories, which is a lot).

Alright I am gonna operate under the assumption that we will start at 2PM CEST. I am gonna just push my sleep schedule forward and try to wake up at like midnight before the race or something, since there is no way i go that far back to wake up before it starts at this point. So because of that, making it earlier would make things easier for me, but I should be able to do it.

I am fine with any day during the week, so August 10th sounds fine. As for the time, it is probably best that you guys decide the time, just keep in mind that whatever time you do is 6 hours ahead of whatever time it would be for me (if you choose 9am to start, then I have to start at 3 am). I will probably have to adjust to what you guys do, but since there are a few days between, I can probably be fine with anything, but currently I am awake from roughly 2 pm to 6 am my time.

Alright so this race should be happening relatively soon, but I don't have any idea on what would be a good time to do the race. I know some people might have to derust/learn some hacks to get ready, but that should be happening fairly soon and we are going to need to decide when to have the race, and hopefully we can find a time that works for everyone.

As far as I know the participants will be Muimania, MarvJungs, Katze, and me, which leaves me the odd one out in terms of time zones, since those three are in the same time zone, and I am about six hours behind them. So, if I have enough warning, I will try to just adjust my sleep schedule so that I can do the race whenever the rest of you want to, since I have no obligations for the next few weeks.

We can use this thread to figure out the scheduling since it is a place easily accessible to everyone in the race. Also, if anyone wants to join in on the scrubs challenge race, you can say so here, just hopefully you are available for whenever it ends up being scheduled.

For the full series one, we would have to wait until the series is done before it could become a real category, since the release of a new game would invalidate any runs, just like the full series challenges already (i put them in misc for now because the series isn't complete). The other one i see no problem with, it would be one of each number any%. It would be kinda weird because it would be so short, but I guess that just means it would be a category that could get decently optimized.

You kind of forgot a category, corresponding the the current masters and apprentice challenge, the "main series" runs, which do 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, but that would be kinda awkward for this I guess because 1 and 2 don't really have an any%, other than ISC. (Well NoD does have a 0 star but pretty sure that is TAS only). As far as I know, SR4 doesn't have a final star door skip either. To fit this in, we could call it the apprentice challenge, then change the apprentice challenge to some other name between master and apprentice, like journeyman or something. But then it would be tough to come up with names for the full series runs. But, those won't even be viable for a while since the series is still not done, so we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

Anyway, for the "one of each number any%", we should try to keep the same theme as the current names for the "one of each number" categories, so we either have to come up with a word that is scrubbier than "scrub", or change this to scrubs challenge, and find a less scrubby but still kinda srubby name for "one of each number any% ISC". Some names that immediately come to mind would be for the any% (not ISC) the "meme 'challenge'", or the "joke challenge", but that might not be any good, who knows. There is still the option of it taking the name of the scrubs challenge and giving the scrubs challenge a new name.

And here is the second post for voting. If you want option 3 (allow TTM as an option only in the scrubs challenge, but require a 100% run instead of any% ISC for TTM, and also maybe allow NoD 90 star in the standard challenge to make up for it), then vote for that option by liking this post right here.

Alright, so here is the first post for voting. If you want option 1 (allowing TTM normally in both scrubs and standard), then vote for that option by liking this post right here.

Alright, now that TTM has come out and I have played it, I think there is no reason to go with option 2 (complete ban) or option 4 (make new categories). The game cannot be considered in the same category as SR6.9 Luigi Lost in Time, and so should be in the scrubs challenge in some way. Currently doing 100% is significantly longer than RoD 66 (at least for me, even a completely awful RoD 66 run will be better than any run of TTM 85, no matter how good it is), which would make option 3 somewhat interesting for people who don't want to run RoD. On the other hand, I think it might be too much of a time difference (RoD 66 is a LOT shorter), and it may be best to just stick with option 1 (allowing it normally in both scrubs and standard).

I am somewhat leaning toward just allowing it normally, but if people really like the idea of option 3, I have no problem with making that the rule. I kind of want to take a vote on what option people like best, and since it would be somewhat clunky for everyone to post what their vote is, what I will do is make two posts, and I will just count the number of likes on each post and count them as votes for that particular option.

With the way the rules are now, it is somewhat clunky to have to open different ROMs for each switch during a run. As far as I know, the only reason the rules are the way they are now is because that is what TsucnenT did in his runs, which were the first ever runs of this game. So, since no one even runs this game anymore anyway, I think the rules should be changed to make the run better.

Since having to open ROMs in the middle of the run is annoying and it takes some (small) amount of time for the ROMs to load, that can be some variability in the timing that would make things inconsistent based on load times of the ROMs. So because of that, I think that the switches should all be pressed before the run starts. So, for before the run starts, the runner can just make a save file with 0 stars and all 3 switches pressed. That way, there is no need to open ROMs during the run, and this will make the run itself smoother as well since there is no need to switch out ROMs during the run (which forces a reset of the game).

However, since doing this without any restrictions on the uses of the switch blocks would effectively remove the mechanics of the cap switches in the first place, I also propose that one must read the corresponding the sign before they ever use any of the blocks of that color (so in order to use shell boxes, the player must first read the yellow sign, etc.). This way the cap switch mechanic is still in the game, and there is no need to switch out ROMs during a run.

Other people might want to have a different variation of these rules, those being remove the sign restrictions, but have a blank save file at the beginning of the run (which would lead to the beginning of the run being them opening each ROM in turn and pressing each switch right away and then playing the game with complete access to switch blocks from there). Their reasoning for this seems to be something along the lines of 'the passwords for the ROMs are known before the run starts, so there is no need to use the signs to restrict the opening of the ROMs'. The problem with this is that it completely removes the mechanic of the cap switches in the game. It is the same as having to spend the first 3 or so minutes of the run doing nothing and then playing the game from there as if the cap switches never existed and the blocks were always accessible. But at that point, there is no reason to require a blank save file other than to keep the rules consistent with other ROMhacks. But that is somewhat the same philosophy that led to BLJ being banned in any% ISC categories of games that didn't even have a skip for the final star door that used a BLJ.

I think it makes the most sense to use a save file with the switches already pressed, and then prohibit the use of colored boxes (any interaction with the boxes, including standing on top of the boxes, etc.) until the corresponding sign has been read. It may seem weird when these rules are compared to other games, but I don't see why we have to make the rules of this game pragmatically stupid based on what the rules are for other games.

I would hope that a decision about the rules regarding this is made before RHDQ happens, since I will have to be running a 97 star in it, and would like to have the rules I proposed for it, since those rules would make the game less awkward to run while keeping the spirit of the cap switches intact. Until I get a response on this I will run the game with the current rules (must read the sign before opening the ROM containing the switch).

Now for the first post to actually have some real discussion in it. I will try to think of the main questions that I want answers to in terms of preference, pretty much.

First (Q1): Do the scrubs/standard challenges need to actually be challenging, or is it fine to leave the real challenge to other categories, such as apprentice/master, and have the scrubs/standard be easy challenges that can get people into the series so they can work their way up to the harder categories?

Second (Q2): If TTM is allowed, then there will pretty much never be a reason to run RoD in a challenge except for the full series ones. Is Remnant of Doom an important part of the challenge that makes it what it is, and will removing it (and replacing it with something trivial) completely ruin the challenge of the scrubs/standard challenges in general?

Third (Q3): How important is the consistency of the rules? Currently we do not allow SR6.9 Luigi Lost in Time because it is way too short, but supposedly To the Moon will have 70 stars in it, which is the same number as SR5, and more than SR3. Do we consider length relative to other games in the specific number, and consider that NoD is very long, and RoD is also somewhat long but not nearly as long as NoD, and TTM is (probably) going to be much shorter than those two and as such could be banned for the same reason SR6.9 is, or consider length in an absolute sense and put the cutoff for hack length at something like 50 stars for a full hack that is legitimate? (most of that wasn't really a question, but I do want this sort of line of reasoning to be explored and discussed).

I can't really think of many other things I want to get input on right now, but I probably will in the future.

Alright, so this will be the list of options, which will be edited to include new ideas that I see in this thread.

First option: Completely allow To the Moon in both scrubs and standard. Pros: Will make it easier to new players to run the challenge. Cons: Will take out much of the "challenge" involved in the star revenge challenge.

Second option: Completely ban To the Moon in both scrubs and standard. Pros: Will keep things as they are and won't drastically change the difficulty of the challenge in general. Cons: Depending on what To the Moon is like, this decision might be inconsistent with the general idea of what the scrubs/standard challenges are supposed to be and require an exception in the rules, which will make things needlessly complicated.

Third option: Ban To the Moon for Standard challenge, and allow it in Scrubs, but requiring 100% instead of any% ISC. Pros: If the 100% category of To the Moon is considerably longer than the any% ISC for Remnant of Doom (if an optimal run is about 2 hours, that would probably be perfect), this will give people the option to run To the Moon if they think Remnant of Doom is too hard, but at the cost of losing time compared to if they had a good run of Remnant of Doom. Cons: Would require and even weirder exception to the rules than option 2.

Fourth option: Ban To the Moon in scrubs/standard, but create new, miscellaneous categories that are similar to scrubs/standard but allows To the Moon. Pros: If there is a clear division in the community where one side really wants To the Moon and the other doesn't, this could be a decent compromise to give both sides something that they would want to run. Cons: Having divided categories might reduce competition, and this might lead to way too many categories to keep track of.

Since To the Moon may be released pretty soon, there are questions of whether it should be allowed to fill the slot of SR2 in a srubs/standard challenge. I figured before making a decision on it I should get an idea of what people in the community want the rules to be. Obviously this will depend on certain factors that can only be known after the game is released, such as how difficult the hack is and how long the speedrun categories of it take.

In the second post of this thread I will try to keep an updated list of the possible options of how to handle the existence of To the Moon for the purposes of the scrubs/standard challenge along with a condensed list of reasons why each option may be a good idea.

I understand that this may come down to simply being an opinion, and that I will probably be biased toward favoring requiring Remnant of Doom to be run in the challenges, and that maybe other people could feel differently about that, which is pretty much why I am making this thread in the first place. While I will look at anything anyone says and examine their reasoning, for things that are a matter of preference or opinion, I will weigh more heavily the opinions of those that I have evidence to believe are more likely of actually running an SRC some time in the future. As a result, the more speedruns that someone has on the leaderboards across the star revenge games, the more I will give weight to their preferences.

Alright, since you guys seem to like my idea (and haven't said anything about it), I have gone through with my proposed changes to the rules and categories putting placeholder miscellaneous categories for the full series runs to be made main categories when the series is finished. If anyone has any ideas for other categories to add, just post them in this thread and we can discuss it here.

Since Brodute is going to continue making hacks for the next few years, any run with the current definition of the apprentice challenge or master's challenge will be invalidated with the release of a new hack. Because of that, I think it is a good idea to define some fixed categories for this challenge that will not be invalidated by new releases.

Currently the scrub's/standard challenges work pretty well as a staple category for people to get into, and they will change as new hacks are released, but it gives people the choice of what they want to run, so they are probably good things to keep (and there are already existing runs of them so getting rid of them wouldn't be a good idea).

As suggestions for categories to replace the apprentice/master's challenges, I would think that night of doom should be required in them, so possibly a category like "main series 100%" as the basic rule, which would mean SR1, SR2, SR3, SR4, SR5, SR6, SR7, and SR8 all 100% in a row might be a good idea. Similarly there could be a "main series any% intended star count" as another one, where it is the same games, but any% intended star count instead of 100%.

I say "any% intended star count" because some of the games will have skips that allow you to do any% with very few stars, but I wouldn't want to ban specific techniques such as BLJ in SR6 50 star or in SR7 61 star, since I think it is much better to be able to use anything available in the game, and have the real requirement of the run just be the star count of the last required star door. I suppose another way to put it would be no star door skips, but that would ruin SR7.5 82 star because the mips clip for the switches and early green switch.

Either way, if you guys aren't going to just cede control of the modding of this game over to me, we should probably agree with how we will define the categories so that they can be more playable than the ones we currently have. Once the series is complete we can add back the current apprentice/master's challenges, calling them "full series any% intended star count" and "full series 100%" or something.

Also we can add miscellaneous categories similar to the SR1 run-a-thon, like an SR6 run-a-thon or an SR7 run-a-thon.