I added another run to the testdata (thanks Brakk0n) but OPL 1.0 and 1.1 barely make a dent vs BCPS3 which is still vastly superior when it comes to load times. Meanwhile, out of curiosity, I'll add a test run on PCXS2 1.6.0 and 1.7.X (latest) to see what numbers/percentages we're talking about.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d9GM5izB7Qb3doK1dL2zkr3l0_XqEEPs6DsVUXg04lA/edit?usp=sharing I updated my timing sheet from the Master Collection data. has now Brakk0n's Fat PS2 HDD run included. HDD comes down to be slightly worse than 90k disc in terms of loads.

BCPS3 still wins with that config, if we have more consoles, specific connector differences, I happily add more time data. just post a youtube video here for example so I can time it.

don't think this board needs any changes nor ways to "give more access". the best way to play is PS2 naturally, the fastest loading is a PS2 inside of a PS3. is that pay to win? yeah but so would be just adding more ways to enable I guess. not sure how much more value adding HDD would be for the 1-2 people that would consider running Sons of Liberty over PC Substance or even Master Collection. so

I'm not really opposed to the change, nor do I think that any change would necessarily be required so. whatever would happens next is honestly fine with me.

sounds good to me then ( n.n)b

I like HD Fix, it's been used for this run: https://www.speedrun.com/mgs3hd/runs/znep8q7z via https://github.com/Lyall/MGSHDFix

Ultimately I had no malintentions when I made the decision. Plus the thread was unlocked for yet another 24 hours after I posted my conclusion where I explicitly asked: any other thoughts, like the SS/MS thing.

I had support from many people when it came to the split and I knew that was the first big step forward. Merging everything back won't happen after multiple people have been 100% fine with it AS the games have had already been split just not on their own SRDC game.

The issue that the run history that SRDC provides seems to be broken is unfortunate. I made sure that every PS2 run including the obsolete ones have been posted with their original run date (and so was every run for the 3DS board posted with their original run date). A run that was made 17 years ago indeed was still listed as such. Including all comments that had been attached to runs.

The time method decision for MGS3 MC PC was cast as a leadership decision. People have been pro and con about manipulating IGT and I talked to the other mods and they were in line with let's rather do loadless RTA and not manipulate the internal game data.

We went through all official channels, the SRDC mods for MGS3 had been pinged in MGSR where all mods are located in, bringing Limecity into this has no place. It was posted in their #speedrunning channel to inform there, but ultimately the mods have been pinged in MGSR, not just once but multiple times indeed. The runners with their runner roles in MGSR have been pinged for this thread. Everyone that follows MGS3 gets a notification when a new thread is posted and comments get added to it. So if anything, I think there have been enough chances to find out there was a poll happening.

To me, people are running the game now, they're posting runs now. Letting that energy go to waste would be far more unfortunate in my opinion. So making changes quickly, moving forward is of higher priority. Ultimately this thread was started as "well didn't get to have my vote on the matter" and that is true. But when conversations have happened in public spaces beforehand where these ideas have found acceptance and agreements, the thread was running long enough. My Co-Mods also were fine with the findings, as I lined out my plan in the mod chat a day before I finally made the public SRDC thread post with the same content. There was also no negative feedback or voicing that the thread should run longer.

The game split is here to stay. Everything else we can further develop as we go.

It's been roughly 3 days since the post has been started, I think everyone who wanted to make a comment did so. I talked to Verm and we both agree that we'll put in our mod hats and basically decide that MGS3 PC MC will use RTA loadless as a time measurement tool and we'll go to the score screen for now. Leaving the original IGT intact as is.

The HD boards will be remodelled and the HD Edition Emu Board will remain but gets renamed to just Emulator. MC runs will go to the HD board, as MC is just an improved update to the HD release.

In regards to the concrete category setups of each of the current and new games I decided we'll go the MGS4 route. We have Single Segment + Multi Segment categories for each of the 3 releases and so what will be baseline moving forward is as follows:

PS2 game gets added, 3DS game gets added all of them get the Category: Single Segment / Multi Segment

MS will be just a container, no difficulty split anymore, no platform split

Single Segment will be further divided

HD/MC:

• Platorm - Console / PC / Emulator
• Difficulty - Very Easy / Easy / Normal / Hard / Extreme / European Extreme

PS2:

• Release - Snake Eater / Subsistence
• Platforms - we'll stick to just console for now, PS2 and BCPS3 on the same board, later we can split those two and also consider PCXS2 Emulation as 3rd platform. More testing and time is needed to make an educated decision here. So for starters every platform is just submitted as is
• Difficulty - Very Easy / Easy / Normal / Hard / Extreme / European Extreme

3DS:

• Difficulty - Very Easy / Easy / Normal / Hard / Extreme / European Extreme
• Emulation can be discussed at a later point in time. I'll work out with Brakk0n and who else wants to to design a decent 3DS board once the main split is done.

I won't be able to start right away with that setup but will do so tomorrow on Saturday. So if you have strong arguments to bring forward, let me know. Especially in regards to that SS vs MS setup. To me that's the best way forward for now, but hey, maybe I overlooked an option.

Hau5

it bears mentioning, that this is based on the current 1.0.0, 1.2.1, 1.2.2 patches of this game. if Konami will make massive changes that will lead to better loads or just the fix of missing 360 degree analog movement, there's place to open the discussion again. but at the current time this is the way to move forward. keep your eyes open for updates and else, happy running everyone! :)

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC?

Yup, I'm fine keeping MC on the HD board, that's what it basically is or to split it off. If MC and HD stay on the same board, either split via those 2 releases or split via console generation + PC maybe?

• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?

I don't need it, but it can stay for all I care. Free category that doesn't require watching the credits.

• Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups?

nopers.

• Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA?

Loadless RTA with going to score screen. I don't like the idea of manipulating the games internal data like that. To me, same Idea as Xenia runs, finish after final input (ideally something visual like the cancel of the final save prompt), no need to go to score screen unless you want to submit a run. So anyone who basically doesn't run Foxhound just submits "No Rank".

Good call, Apel suggested for PC he could make it, so that the Credits can be skipped but the time of the credits is still added on top of the IGT. A great quality of life update if that can happen.

Hello runners! It's been a few days now since the release of the Master Collection and especially MGS3 has seen plenty of activity and testing from runners. Now is the time to make the move and us mods need your input!

The following questions have come up in the last week, specifically how to deal with MC.

First off, the mods and I agree that it will be smart to finally split up MGS3 as a speedrun game and make new games for the PS2 versions of MGS3 (Snake Eater and Subsistence on different categories, but one MGS3PS2 game), the 3DS version and the MC version. The last point can be up to discussion, but the following reason is why making yet a 4th srdc game for MGS3 MC is useful:

• MGS3 MC is way faster in loads and performance than any iteration of the HDC
• MGS3 on PS3 specifically is still actively run here and there - so keeping HD separate from MC for competitiveness sake can be preferred (your input matters here especially)
• MGS3 PC we have seen great tools come around by @Apel which remove loadtimes from the IGT or RTA comparison and allow for a more even playing field between PC runners. So making a split category for MGS3 MC PC alone is worth it - and if we have MGS3 MC PC already split, might as well make a new game and have both Console and PC as two categories for single segment runs

So the current idea when it comes to game split is as follows:

• NEW Metal Gear Solid 3 Playstation 2
• NEW Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater 3D
• NEW Metal Gear Solid 3 Master Collection Version
• Metal Gear Solid 3 turns into Metal Gear Solid 3 HD Version

how these games are going to be set up will be mostly decided by the mods for these new boards. but a current outline can look like this:

Game: Metal Gear Solid 3 PS2

Categories:

• Snake Eater
• Subsistence

Subcategories:

• Very Easy
• Easy
• Normal
• Hard
• Extreme
• European Extreme

Additional Optional Subcategory (tbd later):

• platform (PS2, PS2 HDD, BCPS3, Emulator?)

Game: Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater 3D

Categories:

• Beat the game (since no other catgory so far exists)

Subcategories:

• Very Easy
• Easy
• Normal
• Hard
• Extreme
• European Extreme

Additional Optional Subcategory (tbd later):

• platform (Console, Emulator?)

Game: Metal Gear Solid HD

Categories:

• Any%, Multi-Segment (Alternative, Single-Segment vs Multi-Segment, similar to how MGS4 is set up)

Subcategories:

• Very Easy
• Easy
• Normal
• Hard
• Extreme
• European Extreme

The notion is to merge the PS3 and HD Other Categories into one HD category anymore, which would be known then as Any% or Single-Segment.

Game: Metal Gear Solid 3 Master Collection

Categories:

• Console, PC

Subcategories:

• Very Easy
• Easy
• Normal
• Hard
• Extreme
• European Extreme

All older releases will use IGT still as timing method (unless challenged?) to make it easier to transition the runs from this board to the new board. For the Master Collection version timings, your vote matters now. Do you prefer for the PC version of 3 MC the IGT loadless or RTA loadless timing method? Should 3 MC console also use RTA instead of the IGT from the score screen?

You may also wonder why I don't mention HD Emulator. There's a notion to remove the Xenia runs altogether from the HD board, as the intention was back at the start of the year, to make MGS3 in general more accessible. This decision was done before anyone knew that the Master Collection will come out, especially as it wasn't clear that also these games will come out to PC (Steam). Are there objections to this? Do you want to keep the HD Emulator category?

Emulation for the PS2 and 3DS games are also open to be discussed later, once the split has happened. At least for MGS3 on PS2, Apel has a working autosplitter and we know that TheDementedSalad has been working on a more improved robust version of the PS2 autosplitter.

So in conclusion, these are the ideas that are currently flying around, let's discuss and sit down to make a plan forward. Then once we made a decision, the mods can start working on modifying the board and get to add all the new MC runs that have been made since release.

In summary:

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC?
• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?
• Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups?
• Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA?

All other details like which mods should or shouldn't be allowed for MGS3 MC can be discussed later.

Thanks for your patience and attention!

Hau5

I think for this one category we can make an exception in the settings. It's not going to break the emulation and for the sake of the CE it's better to actually being able to see the pictures. So long as all other rules are set standard I have no qualms over a CE exception.

Nice! have fun racing

Hey there! I did the IGT inspection with a simple test, just booting up the first IL that has a timer and see how quickly it ticks. Compared to RTA, the IGT ticks way faster or slower on Xenia. That's because xenia as an emulator has a big flaw that causes IGTs for games like MGS2, MGS3 and MGSPW to not run accurately: it can only update in full miliseconds. Meaning that the v-sync value that dictates the update rate can only be either 16ms or 17ms. However to accurately simulate a game at 60fps, the updates would need to come out at 16.6666667ms. That was my preliminary testing for PW and coming to the conclusion that we'd need more runs on the board. Xenia does load extremely fast and would dominate any of the console runs in RTA timing. So wether to allow Xenia or not depends on more runs being done and testing required. I'd still require the emulator to run at 16ms updates (which runs the game slightly faster than 60fps), then using a framelimiter like RTSS or the AMD or Nvidia driver tools to limit the program running at 60fps. That would match what MGS3 currently uses for its Emulator category. Other than that, if Xenia ever updates this flaw in their logic, review of that tickrate in the IGT can be redone and reverified. Until then, my personal suggestion towards the mods was that IGT ILs on Xenia just are a hastle, fullgame RTA timed runs Xenia would crush any console and that it's not in line with how RPCS3 does emulation. For the casual experience this may be irrelevant, but for the moderation purposes of this board I think Xenia is not up to standard yet. Seeing as the Master Collection Vol. 2 datamines already show us that PeaceWalker is coming in the future, I'd rather wait for Konami to announce that collection. We literally had that situation with MGS3 for emulation so people could finally have more access to the game, now we're sitting at a useless emulation category when MGS3 MC on PC and modern consoles is running beautifully and meets all requirements that led us to ask for an Emulation category in the first place. So yeah, that's my 10 cents on the matter. If the mods will do anything with it, that's up to them. Here's the video comparing different xenia v-sync setttings and how it impacts the IGT.

If people want to submit to any category, I suggest using console. Even the PC runs of the MC version.

As a super Moderator i can confirm you’re good to use QT. See here for emulator settings and check out the rules if there’s any first unclear instructions.

https://www.speedrun.com/mgs1/guides/2jdhp

I don’t think anyone ever used nogui and I don’t make a concern with that as we have solid rules for allowing fast speed settings as outlined in the guide linked above.

Well when it comes to mgs emulator runs specifically ;)

you can find the Tekken forum here:

https://www.speedrun.com/series/tekken

Awesome stuff!

Due to work taking over heavily I can’t really finish the question in regards here. Either another mod can further advance the topic or I can check in during the weekend. Sorry for the delay.

Has anyone in this thread found any new positions? I‘m tired of this honestly. Constant back and forth, lose definitions, mods that rename categories at will just because they want to. What the hell has happened to this hobby.

I propose that the glitch to stay in control during the first cutscene as it was shown in the first post does not meet the nmg, gl or restricted nature of the category. The extended duration of a phase up into the end of the fight does not concern me personally.

If push comes to shove the supers will make a final call about this. I’m busy today so I guess I’ll let the situation rest another 24 hours and I’ll see if anything new has come to the table.