Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens7 years ago

So Racingmonster just submitted a run of a custom game starting at round 10 for a PaP run. Pretty much an instant WR.

Before I verify (because he's right, there aren't any rules against this), should we ban custom games or at least ban rules that aren't there for the original mode? That is, you can't start at certain rounds to instantly PaP.

My opinion is that this is the same exact thing as cheating except that you don't explicitly put in a cheat code. I think it's essentially the same thing. If others believe otherwise, we can allow it. I'd like to get a consensus from others before we make a decision one way or another.

If I don't get any responses in a few days, I'll go ahead and accept the run and we'll allow custom games because, if nothing else, I don't want to be a nazi mod.

Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens8 years ago

Hey guys,

I just changed the rules to be a little more specific for the full game runs and for the ILs. The full game run timer starts on first input and ends when the last cutscene starts to play.

ILs use IGT to time since it's super easy to see that. I also changed IL difficulty to basically whatever's fastest. Normal alone doesn't really make sense to me.

Let me know if this doesn't work for you or if there are gripes.

maddavid123 and Z like this
Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens8 years ago

I just started to take a look through the RAM for the game using Cheat Engine. I'll document my findings as I come across them. I already have some interesting things, it looks like.

First off, what I'll explain some things at a higher level of what I've found out. It looks to me that the Stamina isn't placed in the player struct like health and respect are. I've found offsets for health, respect, player coordinates and plenty other things. Some of which I only have a vague idea about and others which I have a clue as to what they are. The time of day interestingly seems to be in the player struct. Alternatively, it just might happen that the player struct has been laid out in memory close to other structures so what I actually see is different structs with different data. The reason I believe if to be all in a player struct is that the respect is referenced from the struct base with an offset (addr+1200). At the top of that struct is some pointers and then what are clearly player coordinates.

Interestingly, stamina doesn't seem to be included here and is in a place in memory before the player struct. This is part of the reason that I believe the infinite sprint glitch works. It might not have anything ¤real¤ to do with it in the end, since it could easily be some kind of check to see if a condition has been met but the fact that it's in another location in memory is still interesting.

Furthermore, stamina is CONSTANTLY being written to. If you're running, it's being overwritten decreased. If you stop, it's being increased. As soon as you're at max, it's being overwritten with the same value (9000). If you have infinite sprint, this is only slightly different. When you're running, it goes up to 10,000 and stays steady, constantly writing that. When you stop, it drops back to 9000 and writes that repeatedly.

On top of that, in either case, it also writes using a different function whenever you stop running. I haven't figured out the case of that one but the other two are exactly what you'd expect given what I've said. When running, it's a load-increment (or decrement)-store. Otherwise, just a constant load-store. From the start, that seems like weird unnecessary programming but who am I to judge. I've needed some funky work arounds, myself.

Using cheat engine, I've been able to dynamically modify how much respect of money I've been given and I've also been able to make myself (along with all NPCs) invincible.

I have quite a bit more work ahead of me, trying to understand this assembly and make heads or tails of it all but this is a halfway decent start.

EDIT 1: I have most definitely figured out a boolean value that dictates whether or not the Tornado is on the map. Addr 0x02FCE538+0x7C if you want to try it for yourself with Cheat Engine. The struct at 0x02FCE538 is the struct specifically for the Tornado. Looking at offset 0x80, it says heli_fight as a string and a little further down, there's another string that says Tornado. This is preeeeeetty good news, I think. We can analyze this struct and see if there's any way to exploit randomness. Right now, I'm trying to find if there's any particular thing that causes the Tornado to come up with a 1 in offset 0x7C. Atm, I've just figured out that it simply does happen. I've tested with the Police Station spawn and a garage spawn. Also note that changing this value directly doesn't appear to cause a spawn but simply tells you whether it's there or not so it's likely being called in a function that spawns it and sets that.

Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens8 years ago

I have just begun moving all the boards over to a new format that can be currently seen. If there were runs that I missed moving over to the new format, you can find them under your profile page under runs. Go ahead and resubmit them for verification and I'll add it back in. If, for some reason, you can't find the run there, simply submit it again. Sorry if this affects you, I tried my best to get everything copied over again if possible. This change gives the boards added flexibility in how they display runs and is ideal in what we try to accomplish.

BOZAK_115 likes this
Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens8 years ago

I have just begun moving all the boards over to a new format that can be currently seen. If there were runs that I missed moving over to the new format, you can find them under your profile page under runs. Go ahead and resubmit them for verification and I'll add it back in. If, for some reason, you can't find the run there, simply submit it again. Sorry if this affects you, I tried my best to get everything copied over again if possible. This change gives the boards added flexibility in how they display runs and is ideal in what we try to accomplish.

Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens8 years ago

There's a couple different formats that can be used to organize these leaderboards. Each layout is shown. The first is on the BO1:Z and BO2:Z page and the second type is shown on the BO3:Z page.

I personally like the layout on the BO2 and BO1 pages but that might be own personal bias because I set those up. The largest downside is that it gets a little bulky with more runs and you can only see the first place.

For either of them, it doesn't look like you can nest the menus. i.e. you can't have it go TranZit->EasterEgg->Richtofen Ending->Obscure Misc category. You can, at most, have 1 layer down, like we have in BO3, The Giant and then PaP and the Easter Egg. The largest downside to this is it looks like it greatly limits the number of level types that can be had. It also looks like all Solo stuff gets lumped into Co-Op stuff where in the other layout it wouldn't. And it clearly makes a difference whether anything's done Solo or Co-Op.

That problem with nesting and size limit can be eased by using the system in BO2. The more levels you add, the longer that IL list becomes and it doesn't necessarily look cluttered by squeezing all the names together on one line. The list would just extend downward, if that makes sense.

I wanted to gauge what everyone thinks about this because it would be nice to have uniformity and group input on the direction to go. My vote is on the IL system, at least until proper nesting is in place (if that's on the site agenda).

EDIT: Actually, apparently there is nesting. Check out what I've done on the Full Level leaderboards side on the BO2 page. Looks pretty good, IMO...

BOZAK_115 likes this
Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens8 years ago

Hey Bikyoshi and Rhael! I saw your post, Rhael, on the other feedback thread that mentioned you messaged me on twitch. I didn't see anything on Twitch so I didn't know you wanted mod status! I can give you both supermod if you like as well since I don't run these games, myself. I set it up because I had plans to but...never actually did.

Just let me know if you want me to make that change.

Also, if you feel up to it, since you guys run the game, you can start defining rules for the categories as well, if need be.

Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens8 years ago

I have completed my first run (and gotten wr but I'm not happy with it). I've attempted 58 times before finishing that one and at this point, have about 75-ish. I have developed some good strats that'll get you pretty much the entire way. The only thing that sucks is that there's inevitable RNG. I'll post all my steps here.

Throughout all of this, you should be taking any advantage you get to get inside the robots for the wind staff parts. It's all RNG so you just have to pray you don't get screwed.

  1. Grab the shovel and maxis brain.
  2. Turn the switch here 2 times
  3. Start the generator and stab 10 of the paladins for max points, then end it. Grab Quick Revive
  4. Stab every zombie, don't shoot.
  5. At the start of round 2, grab the 2x points and shoot every zombie 8 times and then knife for max points. Hope you don't get a nuke.
  6. After round 2, go to gen 2, looking for the shield part along the way
  7. Go into the train station and buy the mp40, grab the ice disk, grab the tablet, turn the switch 3 times
  8. Look for the shield part if you haven't gotten it already
  9. Turn on gen 2 and stay here till round 4
  10. Dig while it's snowing for the ice part and hope Thor comes along (Head to gen 3 while snowing if ice part not dug up here)
  11. At the end of round 4, go through the doors here but go over to gen 3.
  12. Turn on gen3
  13. Get the shield part if it's here. If not, go back through the door here towards gen 1 and look there.
  14. Head up towards no mans land. Go straight towards the church (But not actually going to the church). Dig along the way if snowing.
  15. Turn the switch at the mound 3 times.
  16. Look for the last shield part in its 3 locations in the feet and look for the black record along the way
  17. Build the shield in wind tunnel
  18. Turn the switch by wind tunnel 2 times
  19. Turn on gen4
  20. Grab the lightning disc
  21. Kill the last zombie and sit in the footprint by gen 4
  22. Fill up this box then head over to the footprint by the dig site and do the same there.
  23. Leave one zombie at the end of round 7.
  24. Open up gen 5, grab the wind disc, turn on gen 5
  25. Buy stamin-up
  26. Turn this switch 3 times
  27. Go up towards the church and open that up (if it hasn't been opened yet. If it has, make sure you shoot the plane down).
  28. Turn the switch behind the tank 2 times
  29. Go up and take the tank down, collecting the lightning part. Look for the maxis part as you run down.
  30. At the tank station below at 2, you can ride the tank immediately if you ran behind it on its way down.
  31. This is why we bought the stamin-up: you can collect both staff parts here. Stand on the left corner of the tank and jump when it gets to the first platform. Run down, grab the piece and as far as you can, run back and hop back on the tank. It's not possible to do without stamin-up
  32. Grab the last staff part. After, head down the tank path again and look for the maxis part.
  33. Go up to the dig site and open it up. Look for the black disc if it hasn't been grabbed already. Look for the maxis part as well. At this point, we should be scraping the bottom of our funds.
  34. Grab the gramophone but don't open the basement yet.
  35. Run over to the lightning tunnel and open the gateway.
  36. Grab the lightning rock and leave. (Make sure you open up the gateway back before grabbing the rock to save some time)
  37. Run back to the dig site and build the staff. Look for the maxis part if you need to, as you head down the dig site. Head over to either the gen5 box or church box, whichever suits you best.
  38. Kill the last zombie
  39. The panzer will come but the lightning staff makes short work of him. Grab the fire staff part then.
  40. Fill up this box and then head over to the last box.
  41. Fill up this box until either it's done or it starts snowing.
  42. Once it starts snowing, at round 10, find the last ice staff parts.
  43. Finish filling the boxes
  44. Head up towards gen 6.
  45. Grab the fire disc, place your stone in the water, turn the switch behind it once.
  46. Grab the one inch punch
  47. Turn on gen 6 and get the fire staff part.
  48. Do the punches to cleanse the tablet
  49. Take the tablet down to the tank station and keep doing punches. One method I found useful was to go in the door by gen 2, punching while keeping your back clear. Keeping backing up towards where the tank sits. Once out of the door, run around back towards gen 2 and repeat. This way, you keep moving and don't get stuck.
  50. Grab the G-strike when done.
  51. Hold on to one guy at the end of this round. Here's where almost the entirety of the upgrading happens. We have to make sure we hold on to the zombie here.
  52. Start with the fire tunnel, since we're here. Go down it and get the fire rock.
  53. While in the crazy place, do the lightning puzzle. The switches should all be done already.
  54. Come out the fire tunnel, grab the gramophone, and go to the dig site. Buy the stg off the wall and trade for the mauser or get mule kick
  55. Build the fire staff, shoot the lightning orb after turning all the lights
  56. Head towards gen 6 and go down the ice tunnel. Look for the maxis part if not found. Grab the ice rock and place the lightning staff.
  57. Come back to the dig site and build the ice staff and pick up the ice staff
  58. Head down the wind tunnel and grab the wind rock. Do the ice puzzle while here.
  59. Come out the fire tunnel. Go towards the tank station and shoot the tombstone
  60. Head up to no man's land and shoot the other 2 tombstones.
  61. Go to the dig site and shoot the orb. Build the wind staff.
  62. Go down the wind tunnel again (Gramophone is there, leave it).
  63. Place the ice staff (Make sure you open the portal before running over to place it)
  64. Run back to the dig site, pick up the wind staff and do the puzzle. Come up to no man's land again.
  65. Shoot the smoke in the following order: gen 4, tank path behind church, gen 5. As you pass the tank, build the maxis drone at the table. Pick it up after.
  66. Go down the dig site and shoot the orb.
  67. Place the wind staff and come back
  68. Grab the fire staff and go back down to the crazy place. Now we're ready for the next round
  69. Do the fire puzzle.
  70. Once the puzzle in the crazy place is done (And before all staffs are upgraded (only wind and maybe one other will be done)), come up through ice tunnel
  71. Do the fire puzzle here and shoot the orb
  72. Run back to the crazy place and place the first staff. Pick up your favorite upgraded staff and kill till they're all done.
  73. Place your staff BACK IN THE PEDESTAL HERE. Then pick up fire. Go out through wind.
  74. Run back to the dig site and do the fire staff glitch (place the fire staff down in the pedestal 4 times. On the 4th, wait for samantha to say something and the pedestal to disappear, then grab the fire staff again).
  75. Now here's SO MUCH RNG! One of my runs died altogether because it took 10 mins here. But wait over by gen 5. Pray to the gods that one of Odin's feet is lit up. If it isn't wait for another shot. If it is, thank whatever god you wish and then get inside.
  76. Wait for the purge sequence (And don't listen to the audio logs, they delay it). Once you here 3-2-1, wait for the "imaginary 0" and press x on the red button. If you do it right, you should hear overlapping phrases. I believe they say something about firing and something about purge sequence initiated. Basically, you'll hit the button and then the robot will kick you out at the same time. This is much faster than holding x to get out and you need all the time you can get.
  77. When you drop, while practicing and not that great, I'd do one throw immediately, trying to hit the stone slab over the map. I'd hold on the other for when you're reasonably sure you'll make it. The first one is because the window you have is incredibly short. The second is because you at least want to make it on and it is possible to wait until you have a clear shot, if not likely.
  78. If done right, the slab will br broken and you'll hear samantha. Throw Maxis down into the hole. Run back toward Odin's first left footprint (his left). At the entrance closer to the dig site, stand there and use the fire staff's charged up shot at the other mouth to the footprint. The panzers will only come from that entrance. At this point, you'll probably kill your zombie but that's okay. It's not the biggest deal.
  79. After they're all dead, run back to the crazy place
  80. Place the fire staff and pick up the ice staff
  81. Come back and shoot the 3 carriages on fire to get a zombie blood.
  82. Run up to the top of the dig site and PAP your stg if you haven't yet.
  83. Grab the zombie blood and shoot down the plane.
  84. Hope you have enough time left and run COUNTER-CLOCKWISE around the dig site.
  85. If you see the dude, kill him and pick up the maxis drone.
  86. If you don't make it in time, keep killing zombies, ending rounds until you can shoot the carriages again or until a zombie blood is picked up and you can kill the pilot
  87. Once done, head down to the dig site. Punch the smoking zombies, keeping plenty of distance. It's safer to shoot and punch later than to try and punch everyone.
  88. Once done, grab the tablet.
  89. Run up to the church, grab the maxis drone.
  90. Head down to the crazy place and place the ice staff
  91. Kill zombies. Remember that the punches now are powerful. Keep a portal open at wind just in case you go down and need an out or just need to escape real quick.
  92. Once the portal opens, throw up maxis.
  93. Wait until you can press x on the platform and then it's done! (Note: some guides may tell you that you need all generators on but this video seems to disprove that:

So there are a few things to note here.

  1. Robots suck. Take every advantage you get to get the wind staff parts. If you lose 30 seconds in one part, it might save you 3 minutes later.
  2. Practice the G-Strike throws. The timing window also sucks for that.
  3. If you don't get the lightning staff for the panzer soldat, the wind staff also works. You can altogether not get any staff but I'd say it wastes a good couple minutes if you don't.
  4. I'm not altogether sure if the generators are necessary for anything but PAP and their relative perks, and for the pedestals to work for the upgraded staffs. If a generator is being taken, it's honestly probably not in your best interest to go for it unless it's close or you need a max ammo. In solo, you can turn it on pretty quickly if necessary and giving up a box, say, could waste much more time if a robot closes it first. It's probably best to hope for a nuke then.
  5. The staffs can also get completely upgraded before the G-Strike is taken. This is likely NOT the best scenario though. As the rounds get higher, zombies get harder, making punching them (with these terrible hitboxes) even more difficult. It's best to go for the G-Strike asap.
Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens9 years ago

This is more of an etiquette question but I was wondering if it's a bad thing for mods to add their own runs. The basis if this question is because, clearly, they don't have to approve their runs which means that at times, illegitimate runs can be added. I understand that sometimes only a single runner may be a mod and therefore, it makes sense that they'd just submit and auto-approve a time. But for games with multiple mods should it be that even if a mod submits a run, another has to verify? If not, I'm curious as to the reasoning and possibly what kind of a role a mod should have in the approval process. I.e. should a mod just be there to avoid "clutter" or should they judge correctness possible cheating.

Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens9 years ago

I've been thinking it'd be really cool to try and do one. Not sure if it's feasible enough or what but I'm wondering if it's been done or what anyone's thoughts are on it.

Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens9 years ago

So I thought I'd make this topic as I've just discovered a glitch (though not a helpful one) and this could be a useful place to discuss anything that is found during runs.

The one I found was that in Visiting Hours after you bring Johnny downstairs and after the ambulances blow up, when taking the elevator back upstairs, do NOT press Y (or whatever it is on PC to let go of the bed). This will leave Johnny downstairs, you'll ride up to the top and there's no way to get back down. This softlocks the level and you'll just have to restart from the checkpoint which, luckily, is only after the ambulances are blown up.

Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens9 years ago

Besides the current WR video, which is currently 11 months old, is there anywhere in particular I should start? Have there been any improvements since then or is there anything I wouldn't know about by just watching the video?

Virginia, USAFoxAndRavens9 years ago

I'm currently working on a routing tool for (generally) open world games, but specifically for Saints Row, and even more specifically for Saints Row 2. I have a github repo that I've been adding to and I've roped one of my friends into helping but progress is slow due to school. I'm wondering if anyone has any CS skills or would like to contribute.

I started off with c++ and I think we'll actually end up with go. This might make things a little more complicated but go is a fun language and that's what I want this project to be.

A little more about the style: My plan is that the user will be able to load in a picture, a map, of their game and it will be clickable in that you can select a position to add either a "mission" or a "collectible." Each one will have different specifics you can associate with it but most notably, missions have a "start" and "end." Collectibles only have a single point. Anything can have pre-requisites associated with it, including other missions or collectibles.

After all this is put in, a "best route" can be calculated, using something like dijkstra's shortest path algorithm.

Of course, this is in a pre-pre-pre-pre alpha stage since I'm just working on thoughts right now but if anyone's interested, you can let me know.

Here's the repo if you want to look at some basic code or my idea in pdf format:

About FoxAndRavens
9 years ago
4 years ago
Games run
Saints Row 2
Saints Row 2
Last run 8 years ago
Call of Duty: Black Ops II Zombies
Games followed
Saints Row 2
Saints Row 2
Last visit 4 years ago
Saints Row
Saints Row
Last visit 6 years ago
Call of Duty: Black Ops II Zombies
Call of Duty: Black Ops III Zombies
Call of Duty: Black Ops Zombies
Call of Duty: Black Ops Zombies
Last visit 5 years ago
Call of Duty: World at War Zombies
Agents of Mayhem
Agents of Mayhem
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Saints Row Category Extensions
Saints Row Category Extensions
Last visit 4 years ago
Games moderated
Saints Row 2
Saints Row 2
Last action 8 years ago
Saints Row: The Third
Saints Row: The Third
Last action 7 years ago
Saints Row
Saints Row
Last action 8 years ago
Saints Row: Gat out of Hell
Saints Row: Gat out of Hell
Last action 8 years ago