WalesI don't think we should "focus on finding new categories" at all. Adding new categories just splits the community and most of them are never run. If people enjoy the idea of a certain type of run, they will run it, and if it gets popular enough, then it might be added to the leaderboard. But there's almost never a case for "hey guys I just came up with this run, add it to the leaderboard." no one else will run it. The person who suggested it probably won't run it.
Jake,
I've spent some time deciding whether I want to respond to your unnecessarily inflammatory final paragraph, and I've decided against my better judgment that I will. So, I will break it down sentence by sentence and explain the issues I have with it.
"But consider that when you spend money on steam to buy the original Thief series, none of it is going to the original developers anyway."
I never claimed otherwise. This is irrelevant to both my point, and yours. I stated this in response to your apparent conclusion that people who support pirating games made by companies which no longer exist are simply averse to spending money. You go on in this paragraph to specifically assert that I, in particular, am averse to spending money, even despite this. It's in a clear effort to paint me in a negative light, as some sort of entitled child who just wants everything free. Not only is this extremely rude, it could not be more clearly wrong. I recommend you think more in the future about the things you say to, and about, people in the community.
"If you send me evidence that you mailed one of the original devs $20, I'd never throw shade on people stealing copies of Thief ever again. But you won't, because you're fighting tooth and nail so that you don't have to spend $5 on a CD."
This is very strong language for a debate about a 20 year old computer game. From my perspective, it rather appears that you are fighting tooth and nail to make people spend $5 on a CD. I have already said that I have little personal stake in this, and that I can purchase the game just fine. It wouldn't be that inconvenient for me. So it's very strange that you would single me out in this inflammatory paragraph.
I'd like to highlight your use of the word "steal," as it ties into my response to your last couple sentences. When you steal something, the original owner no longer has it. It is taking away something from someone else so that you may have it yourself. When you pirate a game, you are not stealing anything. No one is being deprived of the product you now have, because they also still have it. It's a copy.
"I'm also still curious: do you never sell any of your possessions? I can't imagine you would want to burden the buyer with the guilt of supporting you, Joe Random, rather than the manufacturer of your old furniture and VHS tapes."
The difference is that a person cannot simply download a couch off the internet. When you sell a couch, you're giving the buyer something they cannot just have for free. If someone could download a copy of my couch for free, I certainly would not expect anyone to buy it instead.
In the end, it comes down to the difference between a physical object and a digital one. The two are inherently different and cannot be directly compared like this. I understand that 20 years ago, this concept was still in its infancy, but now it's the year 2018 and "being too old for this" simply isn't an excuse. You should understand the difference between a video game and a couch, and the difference between piracy and theft.
At the end of my last post, I stated that I was not upset about the debate or anyone in it. At this point, I certainly do take offense to the way you have handled things and I think someone preaching about maturity should be more careful in the way they handle themselves.
That is all I have to say on this matter.
-Amorphous
"Should people who like to bake as a hobby just get all of their ingredients for free?"
If it were possible to do that without negatively affecting anyone? Yes, of course. If you could just create the ingredients you need out of thin air, what possible argument could there be for buying them?
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with paying for hobbies that require payment, what I'm saying is that when there isn't a need to pay for anything, introducing artificial limits which require people to spend money just doesn't make any sense.
Again, if it were possible to support the developers by purchasing the game from them, I would whole-heartedly support doing that. I own the entire Thief series on Steam, including the shitty reboot. (I also own over 300 other games on Steam, and dozens more through other platforms) But I think it would be more ethically sound to pirate the game and send $20 to one of the original devs, than to buy a used copy from someone else. Even though the first choice is obviously legally grey and less "legitimate" (whatever that means). And again, it would also be more convenient.
I'm not saying piracy should be supported officially, as of course it becomes more problematic for a group of people than for a specific person. I'm just saying that the arguments against it on a personal level simply make no logical sense. Looking down on people for pirating it, saying things like "Maybe I'm just too old for this, but the absolute aversion for spending money on your hobby to make sure that you are enjoying it as legitimately as possible strikes me as both immature and dishonest," strikes me as unnecessarily rude, elitist, and condescending.
Edit: And real quick, I do want to say that I'm not upset here and I hope no one else is either. I have no personal problems with anyone involved in the debate, and I'm always glad to see opposing view points. If it comes down to it, I can buy TDP. I'm one of those strange people who does still have a disk drive, so it's not all that inconvenient for me.
I wasn't trying to say it's impossible to pay someone money to play the game, the point I was making is that doing that will never benefit the people who made it. Why does Joe Random deserve to be paid for a game he didn't make, when you could just play the game free? And it would be even easier, so it's not like you're paying for convenience.
When there's an option to continue supporting the developers by buying the game, I always recommend doing that. But if your two options are support some random and just get it free, I simply cannot see any reason to pay for it.
Yeah, personally I'd prefer to promote using the "actual" dark project game rather than a mod, because you never really know whether the mod will perfectly emulate the game itself. At the same time, I don't think it much matters, and if there are no obvious / visible differences, I'd allow it.
I'd also be all for an "unofficial" download of Dark Project. Not only is it impossible to purchase that version of the game legitimately, the company that made it doesn't even exist anymore. Even the loose arguments against piracy in general don't really apply here.
Not sure if this sort of grey area download is allowed on speedrun.com / if it would cause problems in general, but seriously, who even owns the rights to Dark Project at this point? Anyone? Does anyone even care about it?
