Thanks for making these updates to the rules. It always seemed like there needed to be these types of clear visual frames in how timing should be done.

I actually offered to help with moderation in the past, mainly because of this reason, so I'm glad to see a new mod has come in to organize the leaderboard.

Ah sorry @CubbyCat , I should have mentioned that I messaged each runner (who has logged-in to the site within the past six months) about this topic and to provide any feedback if they are interested. I'll probably give this one more week before making a final decision. Based on the comments so far, I am leaning towards not allowing the ABC & 123 compilation cart for this board. So, if you are planning on running the game before that final decision, it might be a good idea to stick with the ABC solo cart.

Also, I forgot to mention that if we don't allow the compilation version to be used here, I could theoretically just leave zxKyler's runs on the board and add a few seconds to the timing just to make it a fair comparison, but we can figure that out afterwards.

This is an interesting find, but I'm not sure how I feel about allowing the ABC & 123 compilation to be used for this board. Looks like it saves a little over 3s, which I always like seeing new time saves in games, but the compilation also uses a completely different starting menu (that is part of run timing).

Both versions of the menu take an identical amount of time to select between options, but the compilation version takes an additional 13 frames of loading in before registering inputs, and takes an additional 33 frames to load the next screen when selecting an option.

I wonder if maybe ABC & 123 should have its own board with its own 100% and Any% categories. The main part of the games seem identical, but that main menu being different and having the option to return to that menu without resetting does change the run. Also in my opinion, booting up ABC & 123 and only playing half of the mini games feels like we would only be playing half of the game.

There is currently one runner on the board, zxKyler, who has used this version (for Any% and No Cutscenes). They also use this version for their 123 100% run.

I'm surprised this question has never been asked before. I will consider it some more, and if anyone else would like to share their opinions, please let me know.

That sounds like a good idea to me.

Well that is interesting. I wonder what a real-time run of this would look like.

As the super mod of the game, you can go to https://www.speedrun.com/knowledgebase/supporthub/game-adjustment and select "be part of a series" under the subcategory drop-down. Fill in the game information at the bottom and the site mods will take care of that.

I would add the game to the series myself, but series mods can only add brand new games to the series, and not edit existing games.

I still much prefer the old design with everything more compact and in single rows, but it looks like some things have been fixed.

As already mentioned by others, the text has been resized and run times are no longer dwarfed by the leaderboard ranks. Someone mentioned that we could no longer hover over links for a pop-up description, looks like its been fixed. Also, long console names that took up multiple rows (ie "Nintendo Entertainment System", "3DO Interactive Multiplayer") are now appropriately abbreviated to the way it was before the change.

Not a fan of the new layout either. All the information for each run that used to fit neatly in single rows, is now spaced out awkwardly into two rows... and if you have NES runs then its four rows because the platform gets spelled out as "Nintendo Entertainment System" with each word as a separate row and the age of the run in the same column for no reason. The game titles are also oddly big, probably to distract from the awkward spacing of everything. It would be nice if users could toggle between the new and old layouts, but I imagine that's probably not a simple thing to implement.

As a side note, the ability to re-order runs is neat, as is the supporter-only feature for grouping runs (great idea tbh). I almost want to pay for supporter for that feature alone, and to help support the site, but I really don't want to support this profile design change (as well as the still horrible leaderboard design change and other dubious changes). :p

I'm always willing to help with moderation. I have experience with working closely with the communities where I'm currently a moderator, as well as being able to frame count runs.

Updates to the leaderboard:

-Fruit Fallout category added. -Groove and Move category added. -Rules for Four Scoops have been changed to read [Time begins when "CHOOSE A FLAVOR" text disappears. Time ends when final scoop lands. The "YOU WIN" screen must be included at the end of the run.] -Rules for Conga Line have been changed to read [Time begins when "PRESS X TO PLAY" text disappears. Time ends when leading character falls. The "YOU WIN" screen must be included at the end of the run.] -Game rule requiring resets has been removed.

The new categories were requested by Wenduitz. The rule changes, and the rules for the new categories, reflect a need for clear visual cues for timing that also don't include any loading screens. I have taken suggestions from Wenduitz and PullMatrox into consideration and I hope the new rules are agreeable for everyone. The rule requiring resets has been removed since it currently does not seem possible to abuse save states to any advantage, and the long loading times involved in resetting the game is a burden for such short runs. Thank you for your patience while everything with this leaderboard gets sorted out.

That would be a neat idea. So far that would be D.J. Booth, Tic-Tac-Toe, Four Scoops, Checkers, Daisy Derby and Gems & Jewels. We found out that although Conga Line ends, it technically doesn't have a You Win screen, and I believe Bubble Machine is the same (gotta verify that though). I'm also 99.9% sure that the Groove & Move game never ends. I feel like a You Win!% category would attract runners that would rather play the full game, and this is probably the best solution to that. A longer version of the category could include playing out Conga Line and Bubble Machine until they end, but in honesty I could see Bubble Machine being too long and boring.

As for right now, I have added difficulties for Tic-Tac-Toe, Four Scoops and Daisy Derby. I'm working on putting up times for all of those today, then I'll look into the difficulties for the other categories and then maybe I'll verify all the win conditions for a You Win!% category.

I did not have enough time to look at each game yet, but I have some results for the categories that already have runs.

Daisy Derby: On easy, the solutions require between 1-4 letters. On medium, the solutions require between 3-7 letters. On hard, the solutions require between 4-8 letters. This seems like a good candidate for having a sub category for each difficulty.

Tic-Tac-Toe: On easy, you can win with only 3 moves (the computer opponent doesn't really think logically). On medium and hard, you can win with only 4 moves (the computer seems to always block you if you try to go for a 3 move win), and there seems to be no difference between these difficulties. I will test some more, but this seems like easy can be it's own sub category, but medium and hard will be the same.

Four Scoops: On all three difficulties, you can get the same exact RNG that I get in my 25.482 run. The only difference I am seeing is that on easy, the game suggests a drop spot for each move. With the best RNG pattern, this means that you never have to input left or right. On medium and hard, your turn starts with the scoop appearing in the same spot as your last move. I want to test this some more before I say for certain, but this will probably be the same as Tic-Tac-Toe where easy gets its own sub category while the other two difficulties are the same.

I will keep reporting back what I find.

This sounds good to me. If I have time tomorrow, I will take a look at all of the different difficulties for each game. I just want to make sure that there is a noticeable difference between difficulties (it's probably fine but you never know with these cheap licensed games lol).

I have added the rule for now, and left it pretty simple. "-The submitted video should have a visible reset before the run." Runs already on the board are fine the way they are, but I will be looking for resets on all new submissions. As for my own runs, I am going to update them hopefully soon.

@RadRunner The rule just means that you need to reset the game, and have the reset visible in your video. This way, we can make sure that no save states are being loaded between the reset and the actual run.

@BlloodySunday I agree. Visible resets are always a good idea in speedruns. I really should have added the rule from the beginning, but I did not realize that the RNG could be so easily manipulated.

Technically speaking, the rules have always banned save states, so adding a rule to see a reset in every submission gives us proof that save states are not being used before a run.

So I just did a quick run of Conga Line. It ended at 319 points for me, and was about 3:40 long. Not sure if it ends based on the score or the number of people you collect. You are correct in that it does not have a You Win screen though. Instead, it automatically ends with the victory sound effect instead of the losing effect, and goes to the score screen. I will have to do more research hopefully tomorrow, then redefine the rules.

If you still wanted a shorter sub-category, I was able to hit 100 points in about 1:15, but with really bad RNG and just playing it safe, so sub 1:00 should be doable. For an extra meme category, we could have something like a lose as fast as possible goal... basically finish with 0 points on the score screen.

So I kinda realized an issue with how rng works in this game. Seems like all rng, including how the computer opponent reacts to your moves, for each game is set somewhere between startup and the title screen. It then only changes once you've gone into a game. It also follows a set pattern of changes determined by the seed you get at the beginning.

The problem with this is that you can then repeatedly save state before a game until you find the optimal rng pattern, then just load the state to keep repeating it.

I would like to include a rule to make resets mandatory in all future submissions so that save states aren't abused to achieve perfect rng with every attempt. Current runs on the board will remain since I have no suspicions that this is being done already. For my own runs, I will gladly re-attempt them with the new rule if that's what other runners want me to do.

Resetting unfortunately adds about 15s to every attempt, so I am thinking that a good compromise would be to not make resets mandatory for every single attempt. Instead, you can make several attempts on the same rng seed, as long as a reset is visible at some point in the video before the run being submitted. This way, we will be able to be certain that save states aren't being loaded.

Please let me know if you have any feedback. I would like to add this rule soon before more people submit runs, but I always like to hear from the community.

They actually both have win conditions based on score, but they are much longer than games like Four Scoops and Tic-Tac-Toe. I cannot remember what the score for Conga Line is, but it should be under 10 minutes to achieve. Bubble Machine sucks though, as you need to reach 10,000 points for the You Win screen to show up. I managed to get there once and it probably took 30 minutes (30 very slow minutes). The Groove and Move game keeps going after 10,000 points... in fact the score gets squeezed to fit the extra digit. It is safe to say that this one is endless.

I am willing to add extra sub-categories for these games though. Maybe something like, get 1,000 points? Please feel free to give me feedback and we can discuss what to do. :)

I haven't played this in forever, so I'm having a hard time remembering the final stage layout. If that can be replicated, it might be worth looking into though.

This game glitches out pretty easily and I've seen a lot of bizarre things like this (none of them have been useful or repeatable), but this one is new to me. If I can remember how to play the game I might try it out.