KevinHBKevinHB

Hi. I'm thinking why here is no glitchless section, especially in Nemesis% routes. I see that in the RE1 leaderboard, the glitchless section exist, and it's only for glitches that are skips that doesn't really affect the gameplay or boss fights difficulty.
This catches my attention, because especially in RE3, there are glitches that makes some boss fights a so easy task. I think that is interesting to see the boss fights with regular combat, and see the ability of those who don't like or can't do the glitches.
It's not good the idea to make glitchess run separately? Especially in Nemesis% or all bosses (in the category extension leaderboard).
Thanks for your reading and reply!

 
  kenykeny

@KevinHB

In my opinion, the characteristics of the boss of Resident Evil 3 seems to be actively used as a strategically useful weak point rather than glitches.

Please let me know what kind of glitches you think about separating categories.

 
  KevinHBKevinHB

I think that use weak points is for example acid rounds in gravedigger, ice rounds in nemesis, run of nemesis for our right because he uses mainly the right hand, etc. For glitches I refer to nemesis stucks (first and second encounter with nemesis in the RPD, for example), menu manipulation (in the first encounter, for example), and that things.
In the category extensions, the all bosses run uses a glitch with the carlos nemesis fight, that stuck nemesis in a weird movement, while the player can attack freely and nemesis doesn't attack in the entire fight.
This are some cases that affect the entire fight strategies.

 
  kenykeny

Thank you for your answer.

Regarding menu manipulation, as it is recognized as a useful
strategy of defeating nemesis, I think that whether it handles
as glitches when using that method or as glitchless when not using
is a subtle thing.

 
  LivLiv

I wouldn't really class Nemesis getting stuck as a glitch, honestly. It's just that the A.I for Nemesis is basically too stupid to navigate past the collision properly. Going back to your RE1 example, in that game (glitchless categories included) runners exploit Tyrant getting stuck on Wesker's body in the lab to knife him easily, yet it isn't marked as a glitch. It's more exploiting how the A.I works.

As for the menu manipulation, what happens if you just need to enter the menu to reload at a time which would cause Nemesis to glitch out? Are you purposely supposed to lose yourself time or give Nemesis a chance to break free of getting stuck just because you wish to avoid looping his A.I? It wouldn't really work effectively, or be able to be moderated effectively. Same reason Pause Cancel in RE1 was chosen to be allowed in Glitchless. All of the 'Glitches' in RE1 are actually substantial sequence breaks.

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  KevinHBKevinHB

Obviously is an abuse of the bad IA, but that changes the fights completely. The stucks and menu manipulation can be happen accidentally, but is different make them on porpouse, like all of the runs (I play the game often without use that stucks and IA abuses intencionally, and they doesn't happen).
I think that is undeniable that this stucks and IA abuses, change the nemesis fights completely (especially the first). I don't say that the runs are bad or cheaters, I only ask for a option, to see and make runs with fight strategies that doesn't involve this things in them; because is not the same fight and dodge nemesis actively and only stay quiet shooting in one place until he dies.
Thank you all for your replies!

 
  ustanak_tr00ustanak_tr00

so it would be better to just forbid the nemesis stuck exploit, because if someone is making a glitchless run and opens the menu just for reloading or using a FES, it could break all the run just for "manipulating" nemesis AI

 
  allancgallancg

Just create a category in RE3CE

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  LivLiv

I agree with allancg. Something that difficult to manage / verify is better left in the extensions over the main game if it's going to be added.

Preventing Pausing fully whilst fighting Nemesis isn't something that's able to be managed properly (even pausing at all messes with Nemesis' A.I, not just in instances he is stuck) and Nemesis getting stuck isn't even really a glitch, honestly.

Depends how the mods feel, and if they feel comfortable verifying something that's quite ambiguous.

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  allancgallancg

My rules suggestion is to forbid nemesis stuck exploit, this include the fight after Carlos, so its not possible to trap him im a hallway to prevent him from using all his attacks. Open the menu during the fight should be allowed only for healing, open menu for mixing ammo or reload isnt allowed. Quickshot inst allowed. DIC is allowed.
Only WR needs verification, all runs need VOD.
This should please everyone.

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  KevinHBKevinHB

I think it's not really hard to verify that. That menu manipulation exploit is not really common if you don't make it on porpouse; in the runs and guides, they count the seconds to make the exploit work, it's not something that happens so often accidentally. Not allow menu reloading is something radical.
Quickshot is not the same, because involve ability and doesn't broke (make that you can stay quiet only shooting while your enemy do nothing) the game, is like animation cancel in action or fight games; of course you can take some advantages and make some fights easier, but doesn't make the fights a joke, and requieres some effort and practice to work (and it doesn't always work).

 
  KevinHBKevinHB

I used the "glitch" word, because is the common, you can use another word (exploit, IA abuse, cheat, etc), but the idea is the same.
Again, I don't say that the runs are bad, the runners are noobs or cheater, etc, I see more runs than play it, I'm not in the level of the top runners (they show so much talent and I learn from them); but this catch my attention, because not even Orchlon can compete with Orchlon himself, if in one run uses this exploits and in other he doesn't. Thats why I only ask for other classification without criticize the others negatively.

 
  OrchlonOrchlon

Menuing when nemesis is not stuck on a corner doesn't matter because even if it manipulates his AI still it might just be the difference between a punch and a grab, and certainly not worth to the amount of time a menu loses. As for unintentionally getting nemesis stuck, that barely happens if you're not going for it. That being said, not using corner bugs is a terrible way to run the game and shouldn't be enabled by having a category added, category extensions or not.

 
  LivLiv

Glitchless just doesn't always work for all games, and I don't think it's necessary to shoehorn it into every game simply for the sake of it.

That said, RE1's No Major Glitches exists because all of the glitches are easily definable and there isn't really a way to execute any of them by mistake. They also all substantially affect the sequencing of the game. As in, you skip entire sections of the game. What is being described here is exploiting enemy behaviour, really. Gave an example prior relating to RE1.

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  Bomba_NemesisBomba_Nemesis

I agree with @Liv to me Glitchless are not necessary since it will not make as much difference in the gameplay of the game at least not as in Resident Evil 1, not to mention that Resident Evil 3 already has enough categories and difficulties.

 
  KevinHBKevinHB

I really surprised by your replies. I play the game often and I never use that bugs, and they almost never happen. You are trying to say that this bugs happens so often that are innevitable. I don't say that they can't appear accidentally, but if you don't go for do them, it's hard to see them.
You can't say that stay behind Brad's body (or the shelving of the RPD Office, or dead bodies near the door of the gems puzzle, etc) shooting and menuing until Nemesis dies, is the same that dodge and shoot actively. Of course fight without use this bugs takes more time (as only knife or Nemesis%; but they have a categories because they are other challenge that any%), but involve other strategies and abilities, and that's for what I aim.

 
  KevinHBKevinHB

RE1 examples are pause cancel (makes the Chris run almost a only knife); walk back and the zombies will turn, so they are easy to dodge (but with this method takes more time, so is rarely used); stuck the zombie in the statue with the blue gem (but only affect one zombie, is not really important). But this things are not banned in the glitchless rules of the RE1 leaderboard, and the pause cancel is really a game changing.

 
  LivLiv

Quote

walk back and the zombies will turn, so they are easy to dodge (but with this method takes more time, so is rarely used); stuck the zombie in the statue with the blue gem (but only affect one zombie, is not really important).

Neither of those are glitches. That's why they're not marked as glitches in RE1...

 
  silentkastersilentkaster

Quote

I really surprised by your replies. I play the game often and I never use that bugs, and they almost never happen. You are trying to say that this bugs happens so often that are innevitable. I don't say that they can't appear accidentally, but if you don't go for do them, it's hard to see them.
You can't say that stay behind Brad's body (or the shelving of the RPD Office, or dead bodies near the door of the gems puzzle, etc) shooting and menuing until Nemesis dies, is the same that dodge and shoot actively.

First of all, as someone coming in who doesn't run the game at all (you don't have any runs submitted for any category), why are you bugged with what rules are here? You're free to run the game, dodging Nemesis as you wish, completing the steam room puzzle properly, or whatever rules you choose to do, post them on youtube or whatever forum you'd like and call them whatever you want. Nobody is forcing you to play the game that way. However, those are the rules of the forum.

But honestly, the purpose of your argument, even if you were an active runner, is defeated by your own words here.

Quote

Of course fight without use this bugs takes more time

This is the point. This is a speed run, not a challenge run or a casual run. The fastest way to beat Nemesis is to use the corner bugs, and the fastest way to do the steam puzzle is to let the steam hit you while activating the panel. There are certain stipulations to each category, yes, but this is not a glitch. This is simply an exploit of the AI. There are countless games on speedrun.com that take advantage of exploits.

Learning how to do Nemesis without the corner bugs isn't really necessary for the run because it's definitely the fastest way. You might say that your run is "superior" to mine and other runners of the Nemesis% category, because you're beating Nemesis without using bugs, but it's not faster and that's the point.

Quote

RE1 examples are pause cancel (makes the Chris run almost a only knife); walk back and the zombies will turn, so they are easy to dodge (but with this method takes more time, so is rarely used); stuck the zombie in the statue with the blue gem (but only affect one zombie, is not really important). But this things are not banned in the glitchless rules of the RE1 leaderboard, and the pause cancel is really a game changing.

Not sure why we're discussing RE1 here, but alright. You need to note the word "Major" in the Glitches category. The pause cancels are done because it's a minor glitch that pauses the IGT while opening the menu, saving frames. Old strategies for getting by these zombies were usually just tanking the bite, which costs an extra few seconds. And yes, you do have enough health to tank all the bites every time a pause cancel is used instead (since the knife runs have a heal after Plant 42). However, again, this is the fastest method and that's why this is used. If it was discovered later that tanking the bite or some other way of getting by these zombies without using the pause cancel was faster, that would be used instead.

In short, I normally wouldn't criticize someone for having no runs on the board, but the particular rules you're referencing deal with speed and have been set by the community. When you've contributed nothing besides a complaint and just are here to present a problem, and then show irritation when people are explaining why your suggestion isn't being considered for the main board, then why are you here? Again, you're free to post your challenge runs anywhere and call them whatever you want. But here, you'll have to follow the rules as set or accept a slower time and run it your way. There are no rules against running it the way you describe, so if you can get a competitive time, I'd encourage you to do so and submit. Any% runs use only the glitch in the steam room, and even if you were against using that glitch, you could still do the steam puzzle properly and get a very competitive time, so I'd at least suggest getting a time on that first so that way your opinion holds more weight.

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