Resident Evil 3: Nemesis Forum  /  Grenade Launcher tool for runs and changes in the moderation of RE3 (Locked)
  allancgallancg
(edited: )

Moe, I still think that the most of you guys are seeing the magnum/GL in a distorted way, you make it sound like game divided itself into these categories when this whole magnum% is a mindset that we created, its not fact. It is true that the magnum is a different type of rng when you compared to puzzles's rng in the sense that the impact of the rng is distributed during the run, but I disagree that the magnum/GL rng is a unique thing, the powerds locations is a rng of the same type, its effects are distributed into the run, you have to change your route, your way to fight some bosses, menus, item pickups, the only difference is the amount of timeloss, which is what trully differenciate the magnum/GL rng from the others. What i want to say is that this rng is NOT a special thing as you pointed out and using this as an argument is not valid. I will not say that this is a common type of rng, since I cant provide another example from the games I know (except for games like yugioh fm but that is a too extreme example and may not even the same type) but with so many games out there should not be impossible to find some examples. In my eyes the only reasoning to allow the tool is still for the convenience of excluding from the run a 50s rng timeloss and based in that sense is that people should vote. A way to present this should be "Since compared to all the others rng of the game, the magnum/GL rng has desproporcional impact in the run and we are considering exclude it from the run for the convenience of not having to deal with it".

I'm just trying to make things clear here, if we're going to do this at least we have to be able to provide a reasonable explanation to argue in the future against any other change in the rng of the game.

Se3cretSe3cret, RapixOnGamingRapixOnGaming and 2 others like this. 
  sophLULsophLUL
(edited: )

As much as I'm ethically against the GL tool and think that it might be a slippery slope (see other people who have talked about it better), the reality is the current active, competitive, runners clearly are all in agreement and until the rules reflect this the infinite "GL tool" discussion will never go away.

The rules should reflect what the runners want.

RebeccaRERebeccaRE likes this. 
  PoPo_PoPo_

I vote Yes. Although I do agree that if this happens GL and Magnum should be separate categories and Any% cease to exist. I disagree with its use for races though.

 
  AquacuckedAquacucked

@YoshiiYoshii
I like your point partially and it make me ask a HYPOTHETICAL question to you and to the community: Suppose we somehow found a way to manipulate the game in a 'native' way (with no third party software) to give a desired outcome such as "Always GL on the RPD". Maybe someone discovered if you lock your time/date to some x value (or any other not directly modifying the game method), game would always give you a GL (I know it seems to not work like this, but bear with me), would this be allowed in the leaderboard? why/why not? Would this be cheating?

I'd like to see people's opinion around this 'cheating line' because it seems to be a grey area, to me it seems that everything goes as long as you don't modify game directly.

 
  allancgallancg
(edited: )

If the manip is done in game, then should be allowed in any% for sure (like death abuse in Crash games). But if the manip is made out of the game (like the QC manip for SH4) then we should have a debate over the subject.

RebeccaRERebeccaRE and AquacuckedAquacucked like this. 
  Yandere_MaidenYandere_Maiden
(edited: )

I vote yes. I really don't have an in-depth heart felt explanation other than it being annoying. I think being able to lock this and ONLY this RNG is not that big of a deal. I'm not a purist. Is it a modification of the game? Yes. Door Skip is allowed in REmake and that's a modification and for what? Convenience? Because people don't want to waste half their time looking at doors opening and closing. Shouldn't people that submitted times before that mod feel jaded? Because they had to suffer through loading that wastes their time and these modders just have it easy and don't have to play the game the way it was intended to? You can bring up and nitpick many factors and examples or whatever you want all day, it'll just all go into a circle. You can't please everyone. Yes you can decide to compete with magnum because that's technically any% and you, yourself can choose to reset. If that's the case why was the magnum category created in the first place if it's not so different? Why don't we get rid of magnum all together if that's the case? There's no way around it, that GL is the fastest and most optimal way of finishing this game as fast as theoretically possible and is the preferred weapon of course for the most competitive category of any%. Ensuring that you get that weapon and EVERYTHING else runs as intended RNG and all, and its up to the player to execute. I see no problem. Also, a magnum tool should be created for those that want to run magnum. Only fair right?

RebeccaRERebeccaRE, AquacuckedAquacucked and 2 others like this. 
  allancgallancg

The doorskip mod is an extra in REmake, the "pure" any% still there. What we are proposing here cant be compared. Change "Any%" to "GL%" sounds proper to me in the case we start to use the mod.

 
  SmokethebearSmokethebear

Both of those sound like great ideas moe!

William_NevesWilliam_Neves likes this. 
  SymmSymm
(edited: )

I remember that the Bioshock Infinite community have done a similar thing. There is a drop that is needed and has a very low chance of getting it so they decided to create a mod and make it speedrun legal.

I would like GL Tool to be accepted so that I don't have to do 100 resets before a run happens only for it to die to something else after I get GL. GL/Magnum is the sole reason I don't run this game anymore.

EDIT: I do not want to see any other RNG altered. GL/Magnum is a FORCED reset (well unless you are very new) and everything else is not (Unless you are going for sub 42-41).

Bomba_NemesisBomba_Nemesis and RebeccaRERebeccaRE like this. 
  OrchlonOrchlon

I like how people keep arguing slippery slope when there's no evidence that it will happen. Of all the games that have been modded in src, none have had "slippery slopes".

seedseed, liquidnightmareliquidnightmare and TheNevsTheNevs like this. 
  Magn00zlMagn00zl

Make a voting thread, perhaps? Only "Yes and "no" allowed, and more words than that and the comment gets deleted. And only make ppl that have actively run this game in the past 6 months be allowed to vote. Can this be an idea? It would be nice to be done with the whole thing, cause this has been a bad thorn in the side for the community for a while...

TamsterTamster, AquacuckedAquacucked and 5 others like this. 
  re_dukere_duke

Hi, Im a re3 runner and also watch a lot of re3 streams.

I agree with allan and secret opinions.
I think gl tool should not be allowed for the leaderboards because, then, why can't be a basement tool allowed after? why fix gl chance and not other rngs?
My point is if you fix 1 rng, then you have to fix every rng and if you don't, or it can't be done, just don't change things.

As I said, I watch lot of streams, and I see everyday more resets in the basement/before opening the locker, than in the locker itself, and people still keep grinding. For me, it's a pain in the ass watching basements%, but that's what you can get in a re3 run right?
But, you know, If some day a basement tool appears I will also be against it.

Also if you pick up the late grenade launcher you lose 25s, so if you are not in a -sub44 pace it's not necessary to reset.

kenshireandokenshireando, Se3cretSe3cret and RebeccaRERebeccaRE like this. 
  PyramidKPyramidK
(edited: )

As moe pointed out, there has been several games that were modded due to a variety number of reasons, always for the well-being of the community and the active runners. that doesn't mean we're not gonna know what our limits are, we will never want to change any other thing in the game, because we can deal with anything in the game, except Magnum, which means you can do a 6 hours stream and not even leave RPD just because of the magnum.

We need to understand that sometimes we have to open our mind with some stuff as I just did, in fact GL tool is an external software but so is SRT, SRT is actually messing up with the game's internal memory and reading values but it's something that will not give you an advantage as a runner, as well as the GL tool. Yes, I know SRT only "READ" the game's memory but still, that wasn't part of the game itself and its allowed, because it's innocent and will not give you any advantage.

I understand that modding a game should always be a NO in 99,99% of the cases, but I do believe that there can be a few exceptions when a game becomes almost impossible to run if you get a Magnum every single run for 5 hours.

People that almost never ran the game will always vote NO because they don't understand what getting a magnum for 8 hours straight means. that itself can put people's motivation away, you reset over an RNG that doesn't make you lose or save time. When I started to play re3, I thought people were exagerating with the Magnum, and I always thought a GL tool is stupid idea, but now, as a competitive runner, I think they were right because a magnum in the locker means you're gonna run magnum%, a category that precisely you don't wanna run, so you can't run any% anymore.

From my point of view, magnum and GL should be the 2 main categories, and any% should stop existing for this to make sense.

Also the reason that only active runners should make a decision about this, very simple, if we let everyone vote then by this logic I should decide who is the president of the United States when I actually live in Spain, makes no sense.

Sometimes the most ethical is not the most correct for a given situation, humanity has shown it over the years

seedseed, giaNcogiaNco and 10 others like this. 
  allancgallancg

In advance, this looks pretty much decided imo, seems like most people are ok with the change (even myself tbh) and the mods left are also ok, so I wash my hands from now on.

Pyramid says that only active runners should be allowed to participate in the decision and Mags has proposed even a period to split active runners from non active. Since I dont consider myself an active runner right now, I guess I'm out of the discussion, together with many others.

I will just say that I hope that in the future when you guys have stopped to run for a good amount of time but you still care for the board, someone dont try to left you out of the discussion about some change in the rules of RE3 or any other game that you have invested a good amount of time running.

As Orch said, it is highly unlike that someone will try to make it valid more rng manipulation in the future or to undo this change, so I guess its safe.

RebeccaRERebeccaRE likes this. 
  BawkbasoupBawkbasoup

Yes allow it & make it only available to (PC TWN). Anyone who hates it can just run the Japanese version, the time difference is very small. There was so much controversy over the TWN version in general, why not just stick the two argumentative things in the same game/category. The only people this really affects are those higher up on the leader board and I believe all of them also want the tool.

People keep referring to making a tool for EVERY random component in the game as a counter argument, but none of the actual runners grinding ever protest about any luck based events besides the locker. I don't think a single hardcore runner of this game would want tools for everything. The RNG is what makes this game exhilarating and extremely entertaining to watch.

Its hard to understand wanting this mod to be the norm unless you have 500+ hours resetting on a locker that chooses your category(ESPECIALLY in Nemesis%). We want to promote this as a FUN speed game not one for the mentally insane.

seedseed, giaNcogiaNco and 10 others like this. 
  TamsterTamster

I said no before, but most of the runners are right about being inside the RPD for 5 hours trying to get GL, I hope Moe make the google form so the active runners can vote.

re_dukere_duke likes this. 
  DJNattieDJNattie

People always will want to bring the why not make x RNG tool to counter things like this. We as speedrunners should thrive off tools like GL tool. Not only is it highly practical in the moment it's fantastic for the longevity of the game. No direct skill comes off picking up a GL unlike consistently leaving basement at a good pace. I 100% am for any tools like this because at the end of the day the leaderboards are for competition and we are all wanting to compete on the same playing field where applicable. It's better to move forward with things like GL tool since we have the means rather than sitting in the past wallowing in self pity that we got a magnum.

SymmSymm, Yandere_MaidenYandere_Maiden and 4 others like this. 
  William_NevesWilliam_Neves

I vote YES for GL tool!!! Nobody runs Magnum Route! Fuck the Maggie!! Muhahahahahaha!!

vinevvinev and TheNevsTheNevs like this. 
  Anderson_XPAnderson_XP

Yes I support the use of GL Tool ! =)

TheNevsTheNevs and William_NevesWilliam_Neves like this. 
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