Hi, I'm new to the site, so forgive me if I'm posting something redundant or in the wrong section.
I think we should be willing to add a "Legacy" tab upon request to any game with "legacy" runs.
Why? Well, I've noticed people arguing about speedruns without evidence. Should they be allowed? Should they not?
Why not both?
If people see that the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place spot lacks evidence, they can submit a request to move said runs to a Legacy tab for the game. That way, those run times are still available for people to view, but the default tab will not include videoless runs.
Right now, I'm sure people are aware of the issue, but trust me when I say it's going to get worse. I'm also new to Twitch, but I've noticed something about it - it removes streams over time. So if the top 3 spots are now using Twitch as evidence, at some point in the near future, there will be no proof that a] the world record holder truly achieved the time b] the world record holder ever even played the game.
At the moment, of course, we can see the videos, but we're asking a lot of people in the future to simply believe in the old times and the old ways. :) Of course, if the world record holder comes back with evidence, they can move their scores to the default tab, if they prefer. Some might not feel strongly about it either way.
Anyway, to make a long story longer, let's solve this problem in a way that works for everyone, and in a way that doesn't tax the system too much, meaning a] this is upon request, not something mods need to scour scores for constantly b] if desired, it can affect only the top 3 spots, meaning mods won't need to clean up 100 spots for Ninja Gaiden or something.
Obviously if this is left to one mod, we could run into the situation of them not wanting to move their own WR to legacy, but I feel this solution is as good as humanly possible and can be adjusted as necessary.
Keep in mind we already have tabs for some games for "emulator" scores, as they may be considered less valid or otherwise reasonable to separate for certain games. So this "legacy" tab is no more work than we're already doing, and it solves a developing problem.
Please let me know what you think, as many of you are veterans of this site, unlike me.
Thanks!
Arcotoko
[quote=Arcotoko]Keep in mind we already have tabs for some games for "emulator" scores, as they may be considered less valid or otherwise reasonable to separate for certain games.[/quote]
While I don't dislike the idea of having a Legacy tab, I'd like to point out that those are not the reasons that emulators are separated from console runs: it's not that they are less valid per se but rather that, barring some old consoles, they usually run differently to the original console they emulate, meaning that comparing console vs emulator isn't feasible in those cases.
The reason I bring this up is that this reasoning is different from the one you're using for the Legacy tab: while the emulator tab exists because console vs emulator run differently and can't be compared, in this case legacy vs default certainly would be able to be compared, but they'd just be separated due to a lack of evidence.
This isn't a dealbreaker or anything and I still like the idea, but it's something to bear in mind.
MrMonsh,
Right, that's why I added "or otherwise reasonable," because I'd heard it could sometimes be due to emulators cutting way, way down on load times. Some might call that score "less valid," whereas others might consider it differently-obtained. I use emulators myself, so I'm not taking a shot at anyone. :)
Edit: I'd also like to point out that I've heard some emulation is slower than playing on real hardware! Xbox emulation, for example, is not in great shape.
[quote]Why? Well, I've noticed people arguing about speedruns without evidence. Should they be allowed? Should they not?[/quote] no vid no did [quote]Right now, I'm sure people are aware of the issue, but trust me when I say it's going to get worse. I'm also new to Twitch, but I've noticed something about it - it removes streams over time. So if the top 3 spots are now using Twitch as evidence, at some point in the near future, there will be no proof that a] the world record holder truly achieved the time b] the world record holder ever even played the game.[/quote] use an actual video sharing platform and keep a backup saved somewhere else. Relying on twitch is one of the first mistakes new runners make. Should be said though that the "it removes streams over time" thing is only if you don't highlight. [quote]Keep in mind we already have tabs for some games for "emulator" scores, as they may be considered less valid or otherwise reasonable to separate for certain games. So this "legacy" tab is no more work than we're already doing, and it solves a developing problem.[/quote] it's separated most likely because of inaccurate emulation, not for any other reason (or shouldn't be for any other reason.)
Either way yeah this seems like a waste of time. It's on the runner to keep their video up. If they lose the VOD they can redo the run. Leaderboards should be ever-changing things anyways. New strats are developed, old runs get beaten. Regardless, no vid, no did.
Komrade, « no vid, no did » is certainly one perspective, but that policy is not currently in place. I imagine that is due to disagreement between multiple parties, which is why I offered a compromise. I don’t think a stalemate is ideal, as something should be done to avoid long term problems.
There's no policy because leaderboards are free to police themselves as it should be. Allowing no video evidence is how you get your Todd Rogers somewhere down the line. I get what you're trying to accomplish with this, but it's pointless either way, as if there's ever a question of validity, it's just a case of "someone saw it at one point". Hell sometimes video proof isn't even enough for validation, but that's really a whole other topic lol.
I’m not pushing for records without proof. I’m saying those literally exist now, and something must be done. It seems as if you agree with that, but if people aren’t going to straight up erase old records, this legacy tab is a clear solution to the problem. If they want to erase records lacking evidence, that’s their right, no doubt, but until that policy exists, it’s difficult for me to simply settle for nothing being done, notably in the case of world records.
SurvivalMichi, good! I was hoping it would be a rather simple solution to implement, but since I have no experience with the platform, I wasn't certain.
Didnt really read it but variable makes you able to either mark legacy runs or hide them by default. Make a Variable for all categories. if you dont want to hide the runs set no default. if you want to hide legacy runs set the other option as default. you can obviosly make a different tab via subcategory for legacy runs, but i think that would be the worst solution.
[quote=Komrade]use an actual video sharing platform and keep a backup saved somewhere else... It's on the runner to keep their video up. If they lose the VOD they can redo the run[/quote]
This is great and all for people who are still active, but not so much for those who have "retired", or otherwise moved on from speedrunning. Even with things like YouTube that are generally very reliable, your channel can get axed over relatively minor things (if you're not a total idiot you should never get ToS'd, but still. And who knows what the YouTube rules will look like 10, 20 years from now). A lot of people just seem to completely stop caring when they quit (understandable), but even the ones that do put in all the long-term effort, we can't realistically expect them to be willing/able to reupload backups of their runs forever. There's certainly a lot of ways to mitigate the risk, but videos will be lost, that is inevitable. And when that happens, just leaving them on the leaderboard is not great, sure, but neither is nuking potentially significant amounts of history and progression every couple years, so... it's kinda lose-lose, honestly.
In any case, this particular solution seems kinda meh, I wouldn't want to handle any leaderboards like this at all personally. Though if we're just talking runs with missing video specifically, the site does have a built-in filter for hiding runs with no video (mods have to manually remove missing video links for this to be useful, but your solution also requires manual work). If there was also a per-game option to hide those runs and not include them in the rankings by default, I feel like that'd be better and more useful than something like this.
Shiken,
You spent much of your post agreeing that there needs to be a solution, since eliminating old records might not suit everyone. The latter part of your post seems to suggest that it would be a complex solution, though someone earlier said the framework is already there. I imagine one could check a box labeled "Legacy" in order to move a run to another tab, but I am no mod here. Additionally, this would be upon request, not a constant task/chore. You said you'd prefer to have runs without evidence hidden by default, but how is that different from my suggestion?
Where exactly would they go if not a Legacy tab? If you mean they could be hidden or unhidden by checking a box, hey, that works for me. I'm all for supporting another solution to this problem, since it shouldn't exist. I'm getting the feeling, however, that there is little to no standardization across the site. I assume that has something to do with most mods (all?) being volunteers; thus, the situation is somewhat chaotic. I suppose it's not wise to complain about volunteered time, but if possible, it'd be nice to see this problem resolved.
Thanks for your response.
So, to be completely clear, what you have suggested is something that individual games/communities could put into place right now, if they wanted to. It's literally just a subcategory. If you're expecting the site to globally add something like that to every single leaderboard, you've fundamentally misunderstood what this site is and how it operates.
[quote=Arcotoko]I'm getting the feeling, however, that there is little to no standardization across the site[/quote]
This isn't due to laziness or limited volunteer time, this is completely intentional. Every game has its own community, and all communities are different, they operate differently, have different standards of proof, etc. The site is a tool that these communities use, not the global authority on speedrunning or anything like that. The site trying to enforce a global standard on this, any global standard, whether it's taking a side of going with a compromise like this, would just piss off a lot of people and ultimately cause far more problems than it solves.
There tends to be a fair amount of high level discussion around stuff like this in "meta" areas like this forum, but really most communities have kinda settled on their own way of handling this already, so it's not really an issue. You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist.
If evidence is considered valuable, one might begin to consider adding basic filters, the kind found on virtually any site, including this one. Options are usually beneficial, not detrimental; but maybe you’re right, and the numbers are simply posted, take it or leave it. I do wonder if the more popular games are modded loosely too, but likely not.
I'm speaking concerning a subject that is well-known. Some examples:
https://www.speedrun.com/The_Site/thread/qhxp0 https://www.speedrun.com/overcooked_2/thread/5ilnx/1#wgmrt https://www.speedrun.com/speedrunning/thread/btg9z https://www.speedrun.com/the_site/thread/50x2z/1#td96n https://www.speedrun.com/the_site/thread/l0wte/1#f1jxf https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/355sy8/people_that_have_their_run_verified_on/
I'm sure there are far more discussions about the topic, but I'll leave you to use your preferred browser to find them.
Yeah it lags and freezes a bunch at the end, like whatevs, you know I'm good for it, my dude, like seriously, it was awesome but my capcard's totally scuffed and I'mma get a new one soon, but homie, this run's like a once in a lifetime run, you gotta hit that green button for me brother, it's the drip, y'see?
xD and an xo for my homes
Filters are already built into the site. Filter -> Videos -> [setting] on your leaderboard of choice.