As the leaderboard is getting larger I'd like to propose the requirement for video evidence to be extended beyond the top 10.
Speedrun.com is a fairly modern site, technology has moved on significantly in the last couple of years and it is now easier and cheaper than ever to record and share your runs.
Many of the other games on speedrun.com require video evidence for all submissions. I'm a moderator for the Mario Kart Arcade series and such is the case for that.
I'm certainly not suggesting users are lying about their runs but it is frustrating when you get a new user's time drop in front of yours that has no evidence or even comments. It is good for whole community to be able to see each others runs, be inspired and look for areas they can improve on within their own runs.
The frustration is compounded, when in the past I've personally had several seconds added to my RTA on runs by certain mods just because they didn't see the menu due to the video starting as soon as the cup has been selected. I may as well have not bothered going to the effort of uploading a video!
This raises another point about RTA which may warrant another thread, but here you go. What is the point? As Skull64 phrased it when I was discussing it with him a couple of weeks ago, "when you have such a godly timer that comes with MKDD" which is not the case with many other games people speed run. The answer is of course that you need to make sure the user is not pausing and taking breaks during a run, after all these are "Speedruns". But hang on, if video evidence is not required then you can't check that anyway beyond the top 10. Having video evidence extended or for all would mean "no breaks" can be verified, yes it might be a bit more work for the mods, but you can easily recruit a few more mods from the active community to help out.
IGT being priority (with accuracy to the 1000th of a second) would also vastly reduce the amount players tied for places or even in the wrong order as it is at the very least 1000 times more accurate than humans trying to time the RTA themselves to the closest second and everyone can mash through the menus as good as one other anyway, that's hardly the skills we're trying to exhibit here.
I agree with you, but this should be the case for all of the Mario Kart games.
For example, Mario Kart DS only has 13 runs on the leader boards but 5 of them have videos, meaning that more than half of them don't have a video.
[quote]Many of the other games on speedrun.com require video evidence for all submissions.[/quote] Yes, but Mario Kart doesn't.
[quote]I'm a moderator for the Mario Kart Arcade series and such is the case for that.[/quote] What's that supposed to mean? Just because you're a mod of a game that no one plays we should require video as well?
[quote]but it is frustrating when you get a new user's time drop in front of yours that has no evidence or even comments[/quote] I've never had this feeling for myself so I'm not sure how I should feel about this, but you shouldn't care about ranking; you should care about your own time.
[quote]yes it might be a bit more work for the mods, but you can easily recruit a few more mods from the active community to help out.[/quote] This is basically the problem. If you want to watch an entire 40 minute video just to check for breaks, then go ahead. RTA is not that hard to time. Using a stopwatch or timer isn't really that hard, now is it? [quote]The frustration is compounded, when in the past I've personally had several seconds added to my RTA on runs by certain mods just because they didn't see the menu due to the video starting as soon as the cup has been selected. I may as well have not bothered going to the effort of uploading a video![/quote] This is a whole other issue and irrelevant.
The reason we time by seconds and not milliseconds is because of humans not being 100% accurate. If you really want the "real" rankings, just sort by IGT.
Thanks for your replies, I did want to explore the opinions of both sides.
[quote=derek31047]Mario Kart DS only has 13 runs on the leader boards but 5 of them have videos, meaning that more than half of them don't have a video.[/quote]
[quote=speedrunner123]I AM a god at MK7, I'll never have a cap card to strimm it.[/quote]
I've not played these but I think it is a bit different with handheld devices. Recording videos of these games are not as straight forward as TV based consoles. Even webcam recordings are much easier to do for TVs than handhelds.
[quote=Goomba]Just because you're a mod of a game that no one plays we should require video as well?[/quote]
Pew Pew! Granted it's got fewer submissions being a more recent addition to the site than MKDD and less available but there are many games that now require it due to the ease it can be now be done via webcam or capture card. It just enriches the website content for the whole community.
[quote=Goomba]Yes, but Mario Kart doesn't.[/quote]
Yes, but it can. It has recently been changed to have a top 10 requirement following a conversation between yourself, Skull64 and I.
[quote=Goomba]I've never had this feeling for myself so I'm not sure how I should feel about this.[/quote]
You could ask the people that got dropped behind your recent Special Cup time. I have no doubt everybody believed it was real as we are all aware of your abilities but I'm sure everyone would have liked to watch it, enjoy it and learn where improvements can be made for their own runs. Just like everybody wants to watch the video everytime time Druvan7 gets a new ACT WR. I mean, how did you feel about not having the video to show off?
Most active players are known within the community and so are their abilities, but you are always going to get random dudes popping times in. How do you judge whether they are going to be real or not? Just like our new Canadian friend on PP. Proof would be nice.
I appreciate the rule for video requirement for the top 10 has recently been a welcome introduction but likewise for those of us just outside the top 10, it is interesting to see your level peer's runs for the same reasons I mentioned above.
[quote=Goomba]This is basically the problem. If you want to watch an entire 40 minute video just to check for breaks, then go ahead.[/quote]
Personally I wouldn't mind watching them. I'm a fan of MKDD and I waste enough time watching non-PBs achieved on the Twitch platform. So watching a wider range of people achieve their PBs would be a more rewarding experience. However, if you don't want to do that, you know the roughly the expected RTA so you could check the start and finish time like you do now. But by at least having the video available for everyone to watch has more proof of "no breaks" than having no video at all which could be a run they spent days or weeks completing!
[quote=Goomba]This is a whole other issue and irrelevant.[/quote]
Not really. I've seen other times getting their RTA adjusted because a mod thinks there are late splits or something. In fact all Dolphin emulator RTA times are fudged due to varying load times further increasing the inaccuracy of this default RTA timing. If you remember, that was the reason the recent tournament was changed to be IGT to remove the inaccuracy of RTA between devices. Regardless, prioritising the 100% accurate IGT removes any of this discrepancy.
[quote=Goomba]RTA is not that hard to time. Using a stopwatch or timer isn't really that hard, now is it?[/quote]
Of course not. It's just less accurate.
[quote=Goomba]The reason we time by seconds and not milliseconds is because of humans not being 100% accurate. If you really want the "real" rankings, just sort by IGT.[/quote]
But why rely on a far inferior method of measuring a run being the default? How many times do you see people get IGT PBs on that aren't RTA PBs on their splitter or vice versa. It certainly occurs. I'm not saying you need to drop RTA entirely but surely IGT should be the priority. The splitters some people use are a great addition to the entertainment, even if their main function often ends up being used to judge if a reset is required.
Ultimately I feel that videos enrich the community and the whole speedrunning experience far more than just looking at a bunch of numbers that are largely unverified and by default ordered by an inferior measurement.
[quote]It has recently been changed to have a top 10 requirement following a conversation between yourself, Skull64 and I.[/quote]
And ¤we¤ decided that it'd be better if we would only require videos for the top 10.
[quote]You could ask the people that got dropped behind your recent Special Cup time. -snip- I mean, how did you feel about not having the video to show off?[/quote] There's a reason we're enforcing the top 10 video rule now
[quote] learn where improvements can be made for their own runs[/quote] [quote]it is interesting to see your level peer's runs for the same reasons I mentioned above.[/quote] People only would want to see videos of players being better than them. Top 10 is enough for that.
You're turning this discussion into a RTA vs IGT discussion, which should either be in another thread, or just dropped. At the moment nobody is gonna 100% agree with everyone else.
[quote]And ¤we¤ decided that it'd be better if we would only require videos for the top 10.[/quote]
Yes, although I did say I'd like it to be extended further. We also decided we'd consult the community about switching to IGT.
[quote]People only would want to see videos of players being better than them. Top 10 is enough for that.[/quote]
I would think if you're ranked 50th, you would probably actually learn more from watching rank ~40 to make improvements to the next level rather than watching top 10.
[quote]You're turning this discussion into a RTA vs IGT discussion, which should either be in another thread, or just dropped. At the moment nobody is gonna 100% agree with everyone else.[/quote]
Correct, this was my second point in my original post as it is all kind of related. I agree we'll never all agree. I was just interested in finding out what the general consensus is.
I see that Goomba has addressed most of the points that needed to be, but I'll throw in my own (personal) two cents.
One of the reasons that I dislike enforcing video proof (beyond top level times) is because it creates a barrier of entry for the leaderboard. Let's say you're new to speedrunning and want to learn a game whose leaderboard requires video proof. Before you can even appear in the leaderboards (and thus "enter the community"), you have to invest in recording equipment, you can't just boot up the game and start playing. Another consequence of mandatory video proof that I dislike is that, even if you're a low-/mid-level player, you have to record every single one of your attempts, just in case it might be a PB. If a player is restricted in their access to recording (for whatever reason), then it can stifle their improvement, because they're being disincentivized from doing runs, since any potential PB that's unrecorded is considered "illegitimate".
I'm not going to discuss RTA vs IGT in this thread. If you insist on opening up that can of worms again, please open a new topic (or bump an old one) so the conversations can be kept separate.
Thanks Lafungo, that is a very valid point and I can't disagree with it.
[quote]As the leaderboard is getting larger I'd like to propose the requirement for video evidence to be extended beyond the top 10.[/quote]
Maybe video evidence for all may be taking it a bit far so as not to prevent new players from trying it but as you can see my first comment was just to have it extended.
The amount of people on the leaderboard has grown massively in the last few months, it doesn’t look like you've done a run, so it might be hard to judge and is certainly a subjective matter of opinion, but I would say anyone with IGT of 33 mins or below, certainly 32 mins, is not someone new to speedrunning the game and that extends well beyond the top 10. I would actually think if somebody is serious about speedrunning the first thing they would do is purchase a capture card, good ones are now way cheaper than a games console. But you're probably right, you don't want to put someone new off from trying it.
As for IGT vs RTA, if you really want me to copy and paste my opinions on to the other older thread I'll do so, but seeing as you do now have at least some video evidence requirement, any argument for RTA being default makes no sense to me (they are related topics ;) ).
I know some people would rather use a console, but there is no stopping them from just getting an emulator since its very easy to record on and very easy to setup and use.
I don't really care about videos for peoples runs, but i'm just saying that there is something way easier to record on.
[quote]I know some people would rather use a console, but there is no stopping them from just getting an emulator since its very easy to record on and very easy to setup and use. [/quote] Uhm, no? What if your PC isn't that good? What if you don't have a gamecube adapter? And then they would also have to download a ROM. + It's easier to cheat on it, so video proof wouldn't mean shit. So using emulator just to record is illogical.
@gavme there are many videos in the top 30/20. I don't know why you would want to require video proof just so that other people can watch the person who was 5 seconds faster than you. It would, like Lafungo already said, add a barrier of entry for the leaderboard. If there weren't ANY videos at all in the top 30, then maybe you would've had a point, but even then I doubt that we would add video as requirement.
Hello Double Dashers! Some of you may have noticed some changes on the leaderboards recently :) Here's a quick rundown:
Leaderboards have been divided into two different categories:
- Glitchless: MB, WS, MuC, BC, and any other future skips will be banned, as will Z-Tech. A-Tech, R-Tech, and L-
