Forums  /  Ninja Gaiden series  /  Ninja Gaiden (NES)  /  Opinions on removing Sanaefroggy's 11:58
  WhiteHat94WhiteHat94

The mods are looking at removing Sanaefroggy's 11:58 run on suspicion that it is a TASed run and would like to get some opinions from the community. I have created a video that compared the strats from Sanaefroggy's last 2 PBs. I will just copy whats in the description below. Keep in mind that the all the clips used are from only an hour apart in the same stream. This run was also submitted to the board before verification was required, so no mod actually had to verify it.

This is a video that compares a number of very different strats in Sanaefroggy's last two PBs, a 12:38 and an 11:58, both performed a mere hour apart on the same stream. Strats so different that I don't believe someone would just throw into an amazing run without any practice in between.

4-1
12:38 - Does the normal strat, which is actually faster
11:58 - Does a weird wall clip to get up the ledge, slower

4-3
12:38 - Kills both Tysons and then wall climbs up
11:58 - Kills only one and boosts up onto the wall, harder strat but a little faster

6-2
12:38 - Does normal boost over the gap at the end
11:58 - Does early boost over gap, faster but not something you just throw in without practice

6-3
12:38 - Normal boost up at the start followed by normal left side climb in 2nd room
11:58 - Really strange boost up at the start followed by right side climb in 2nd room, both are super risky and not something to do without practice

6-3
12:38 - Normal, slow looking wall climbs
11:58 - Crazy fast, TAS-like wall climbing. Never seen anyone climb that fast

6-3
12:38 - Normal slow wall climbs
11:58 - More TAS-like climbs

Jaquio
12:38 - Slow strats, intentionally taking a hit up high onto the wall to get slashes in iframes, doesn't do more than 4 damage per round, 5 rounder
11:58 - Fast strats, doesn't take the hits up high, does at least 5 hits per round, 3 rounder

Demon Statue
12:38 - Slow mashing, barely kills the boss
11:58 - Fast mashing, really good kill

Credits
11:58 - After getting a sub 12, and I believe 4th place at the time, during the middle of the credits loads up a fighting game that covers the gameplay, does a combo and then just stands there for 5 minutes. Very strange thing to do at the end of a seemingly amazing run. Possibly covering the gameplay to avoid seeing a 'Movie Ended' text on emu? This part is also cut out of the official submission, but remained in the full vod.

So just comparing the strats between only an hour of attempts it is highly unlikely that it is the same person playing. Anyone that has seriously grinded this game knows this is not how PBs work in this game. Sub 12 is incredibly hard to attain and it takes a ton of grinding and chipping away second by second to get it. It is just not realistic that someone gets all golds and a 40 second PB, with some wildly different strats, to take them to sub 12, since the level of play required is vastly different for this particular game.

Here is a link to the full original broadcast if anyone wants to see it.

So the mods are looking for anyone elses opinion on the matter, because we are heavily leaning towards removing the run based on the evidence that it is a TASed run.

NeoKadNeoKad, SpyderSpyder and 10 others like this. 
  AngrylanksAngrylanks

The wall climbs on 4-2 and 6-3 are far too perfect. I've never witnessed a top runner of this game make anything look remotely that precise. I've considered this run fake for a long time.

DespatcheDespatche, twin0megatwin0mega and 2 others like this. 
  [user deleted]

I'll chime in here. I have always found this run to be highly suspect and I know many runners in this community have as well. I think the most glaring pieces of evidence is the end of stage 6-2e through the end of stage 6-3. To go for the "judas" boost at the end of 6-2e on such an incredible pace sort of reminds me of firemiziques "nice" jump on 7-2b in his "10:06" run of NG2. Very risky strat for such a small amount of time to save. Nowhere in the entire broadcast did Sanae attempt the strat at the end of 6-3a or 6-3b, and the short wall climbs up the pillars after the bird boost in 6-3c look incredibly clean (and identical to each other on each pillar) compared to all the other instances of these short wall climbs throughout the broadcast. The clip on 4-1 is also strange and just... why? I'll leave it to the mods to make the final decision, but I certainly wouldn't be mad if this run was taken down.

twin0megatwin0mega, KKKK and WolfMerrikWolfMerrik like this. 
  Toad22484Toad22484

My thoughts are just as everyone else’s. Run never really looked legit at all, especially a 40 second PB out of nowhere. No one will do that I’m ninja gaiden from mid 12 to sub 12, ever. I’ve never really ran this game seriously just telling you my thoughts on the matter.

twin0megatwin0mega likes this. 
  Chambers_NChambers_N

As someone who has played this game, and having just watched both pb runs in this video, I can say that the style of play is slightly different. No doubt it was the same player but the later looks like too much of an improvement over the other. Wall jumps are cleaner and faster, better mashing, no hesitations in the game play at all. In the previous pb we see what we would expect to see from a mid 12 player. It would be like me playing the way I did and within an hour be able to play like Beerfullofbelly or Aquas. That does not just happen! And when your goal is sub 12:30 and you only have 8 seconds to carve off to achieve it, who goes full ham like this and play it differently than they have, and nail it all just like that! I think people are reasonably suspicious, and many of us who have ran many games can attest to clear oddities. I think most of us are experienced enough to be able to recognize subtleties let alone blatant changes in game play. Whether it is legit or not, and I think we can be reasonably certain that it is not legit, it is shrouded in too much doubt and suspicion. There are too many questions, and too many differences for any other explanation. I am not a mod on this game but I think that it seems way too questionable to remain on the leaderboard.

twin0megatwin0mega and NerdyNesterNerdyNester like this. 
  [user deleted]

@Tarbash the extra useless slashing throughout the broadcast minus the PB run is a very valid point.

twin0megatwin0mega likes this. 
  junkyard_davejunkyard_dave

Huh? It isn't normal to load ALBINA FIGHTER during the credits? Well damn. I've been doing this all wrong. 😐️

Anyway, as much as I've learned about this game, this run along with exo's run always felt really weird and too perfect from an onlooker learning. I really agree with Tarbash that people are creatures of habit when it comes to running. Ninja Gaiden is methodical and slow when it comes to progress and takes a lot of practice and consistency. There's just no real saves in this game except the bosses that don't require high execution or skill to pull off, and to suddenly nail them and hit a 40 second PB is just silly. Every single PB I've had in this game has been maybe 5 seconds or so at a time since I started randomly running it.

One other thing I actually noticed when I was looking at this run ages ago was this:

Play it there (but at 0.25 speed) and please tell me unless you're an octopus how to split like that on kill. I've always split on this game when the timer hit 0 for consistency, but it's literally frames upon after killing the boss s/he split there. Even people like Endy or dxtr who split on kill in Batman and have run that game to death and back take more than 0.000005 seconds to split. Not to mention the inputs to kill this boss would make splitting immediately awkward.

[edit]: 11:08.88 was when the last right input was registered and s/he split at 11.09.23 (I think). Anyway, yeah, <0.4 tenths of a second to split on kill. Nice stuff.

I mean, maybe if you played holding the controller with your pinky on the keypad or something, but even then I always thought that was really strange and weird when I saw it.

twin0megatwin0mega and NerdyNesterNerdyNester like this. 
  ShuriBearShuriBear

So here's my two cents on the subject.

It definitely looks suspicious but the thing which gives it away to me that this run might not be legit are:
- Super fast wall jumping, I've never seen anyone being this fast before
- Not hesitating AT ALL, when he/she was hesitating before a lot.
- The fighting game in the end suddenly + stopping is out of place and it feels like he/she is hiding something.

I also agree with Tarbash, from constantly slashing to never slashing is weird and it feels unnatural that there's such a sudden change to it. Forgetting to slash every now and then (if you're used to it) is normal, but from all the time to never slashing seems weird to me.

I think a few points made are not that strong though.
Like the mashing being better once than other times, for instance I have the same. This game is super heavy for my wrists and sometimes I mash waaaaay better than other times.
Also I think the 4-3 argument isn't that big of a deal. I change in strats all the time to see what is faster/better for me. You could say that it's not comparable between a run of my time (15:xx+) and a run like this, but I am pretty sure even higher level runners will try better strats every now and then to see if it's worth it.

Also I think Dave forgot that there are footswitches, so that way you can easily split immediately when there's a kill, if Sanaefroggy had such a device at the time the run happened is unknown for me, but it definitely should be taken in account.

Conclusion:
I think this run is fabricated, although some of the evidence I find a bit weak it all adds up to the act.

twin0megatwin0mega likes this. 
  RedartsRedarts

As said before, some wall jumps and mashing were just perfect(Humanly possible? Not sure). When I watched the comparison video, I was just like: "How did he got all of that in 1 hour? I don't even know how to wall climb consistenly yet!" That's suspicious for sure.
For that MUGEN game at the end, not sure what was the purpose of that(I mean, he/she just put it there with no reason, and did some stuff with an Iori-based character. He could just stop streaming, really).
Maybe he recorded his own inputs before doing the run? That could explain how he splitted so fast, if it isn't a TAS. I know that that's possible on most emulators(Actually, that's how I post my runs here: I record my own inputs on FCEUX first, then I record the screen while splitting. Why? Well, the recorder lags the game if I use a big screen, so I'm forced to use a small screen if I wanted to play while recording, which sucks, so I record the inputs first - with a maximized screen - to avoid any lag problems, finish it, switch to a small screen, and then I use my own video recorder. I don't think that's relevant, that's just a thing that came on my mind.)
Well, I don't think that Sanaefroggy's run is legit.

twin0megatwin0mega likes this. 
  CypherinCypherin

Yeah, the wall climbing seems suspect. Still...I wonder what can be done depending on the controller used (standard NES controllers vs non-standard NES controllers vs keyboard vs etc.), especially when playing on emulator.

Have attempts been made to get in contact with Sanaefroggy? Have him/her state their case?

(I think this might be my first forum post!)

twin0megatwin0mega and Chambers_NChambers_N like this. 
  jimmypoopinsjimmypoopins

I agree with everything said.

I saw Sanae stream a month or two ago, out of nowhere. I forget what was being played. I don't recall contacting her anywhere other than twitch. Maybe twitter? I don't remember.

My guess is that she won't dispute it because she's so inactive in the community. If she does, then we could return to the issue.

It seems fairly unanimous (whats your opinion cypherin?) How do we finalize this?

twin0megatwin0mega likes this. 
  KKKK

It took me a few months to go from the 12:40s to sub 12:30. This is a game where you adopt new strats very gradually, over a long period of time, not all at once. Regardless of all of that being circumstantial, the judas boost and the insane wall climbing really point to this run being fake. All of the other evidence isn't necessarily damning, but it doesn't help the runner's case.

twin0megatwin0mega likes this. 
  WhiteHat94WhiteHat94

I will try to contact her, I guess I'll send a whisper/twitch message and a youtube message, don't seen any other social media,
and ask her to explain all the issues. Then we can go from there

twin0megatwin0mega, CypherinCypherin and 3 others like this. 
  CypherinCypherin

Thank you, WhiteHat. Then, if she doesn't respond within a reasonable timeframe, then proceed with removing.

@jimmypoopins I'm in agreement to remove.

 
  WhiteHat94WhiteHat94

No response after reaching out on Twitch DM, Whisper, and messsaging both her Youtube channels, so run has been removed. Leaving the video here for history's sake.

ShuriBearShuriBear, BackslashBackslash and 3 others like this. 
  HurricaneMixerHurricaneMixer

Does this mean that Sanae's NG2 run is also suspect?

WolfMerrikWolfMerrik likes this. 
  twin0megatwin0mega

I know the run has already been removed, but I'm just now seeing this. I would say without a doubt, the wall climbs are TASed. I have some of the fastest wall climbs in the world for NG and can't get anything remotely close to that. Based off the climbs alone I can almost for certain say it's TASed.

Just wanted to say thanks to Whitehat and the community for doing something about this.

DespatcheDespatche, garadas21garadas21 and 3 others like this.