Luigi's Mansion Forum  /  Regarding Veman (Locked)
  Snap32Snap32

Bluehits I'm not trying to persuade you to be against someone though, I'm trying to persuade you to do the right thing here,

 
  TheBronyGamesTheBronyGames

Not what i am saying AT ALL, I've lived with manipulative people, so I know what they're like, when they get what they want. But what I DON"T know, is exactly how it happened.

What I AM saying, is that you should try a second chance with him, to see if he truly deserves it, or if he has seen the errors of his way, cause we can never tell for certain until we give it a shot

 
  Snap32Snap32

You and everyone else here knows he didnt clearly cheat. And the fact that this whole issue was years back makes it even more laughable. Case closed.

 
  MonadoMonado

Going to just throw this out here, so here it goes, this is how I feel about all of this.
Personally I hate taking sides, I never like being the bad guy about situations, thats the truth. Speaking as somebody who has cheated, I know I was in the wrong to even think about splicing a run. I knew it from the start, my conscience was telling me it was completely wrong to begin with, but I still went along with it and faced my mistakes head on. I took the blame, I didn't run away from it, I even still get quite a bit of hate for it to this day, but I apolozied for my mistakes and regret them.
Seeing the side of Veman that you guys are saying, I was blinded by him always being the "Top Runner" of this game, always from the beginning to the end. Up until tonight I never knew the acts he had pulled over the years, knowing USB Loading was cheating and manapulating people into using it for his own benefit, saying it was "only" two seconds faster. I never knew about any of this until tonight, I can agree with him being banned on the leaderboards, as much as I hate taking sides I do agree. I agree with what BlueHits had said about if a crime being in the past, it should not just be forgotten, they should pay the price for their actions, what they had done. Same goes for Veman, he was caught, people even knew, but those people who knew got shunned off and pushed out of the community.
On my end I had appoligized for my actions, almost instantly because I felt regret in what I had done. I live up to my actions and deserve to be banned from the leaderboards, I understand this and go along with it. So thats why I feel Veman should also be banned from the leaderboards, what he did was he cheated, plain and simple, he cheated. It wasn't like I did, he didn't splice a run, but he used illegal ways to make the game faster, and he got others to believe it wasn't as fast as it was, securing his WR safely, knowing others wouldn't question him about it because he had a WR.
(This is MonadoPurge btw)

 
  Snap32Snap32

The thing with that is people still had a complete ability to question USB loader but were too dumb to notice any large differences. It was a mistake on their part, and more than anything Veman was just a lucky SOB in the whole situation.

 
  BluehitsBluehits
(edited: )

Snap buddy come on, you're grasping at straws here. Yes "most" people didn't question it, but once they did it was evident what he had done. You're basically saying "it's not cheating if nobody finds out." Also, calling the people you're trying to plead to "dumb" isn't helping your case.

 
  RespectAPARespectAPA

Do any of his recent runs use cheats or in any other way give him an unfair competitive advantage?

 
  MichaelT00MichaelT00
(edited: )

Both sides of this is like reading fucking cancer and this is just stupid. Both sides has valid statements and points that are true. Veman did manipulate and use something faster without telling someone, but guess what, almost everyone switched to using that loader even though THEY knew it was faster by there first run. Im guilty of that too. Another valid point of this is he did basically cause a lot of shit to happen and thus what bluehits said about punishment can be used here as well. On the other peoples side, he technically never cheated because other people also started to play this version instead of coming together to stop it, but he did manipulate multiple people. Speedrun.com is for the integrity of this game, and to go fast.

Both sides has good points, one for the integrity of the leaderboards, and then one for his actual legit 58:01.

There is so may different things being said from both sides that you cant trust either, because both sides are probably trying to cover up at least 1 or 2 important details leftout by someone else. We cant tell the truth from the opinions, that is the internet. Other then that im not picking a side because that is all we fucking do in this community and its pissing me the fuck off, why do people have to be so rude or cruel in there way of backing up there opinion or even truth that we dont know and probably will never know.
I wasnt even gonna post anything for this thread but god dam.

HTDeltaHTDelta, Boohead86Boohead86 and 2 others like this. 
  babysaplingbabysapling

For someone who watches many LM streamers, Snap is correct. You shouldn't try to get revenge over something that happened years ago, and reject his clearly legit runs. There is a place for every run on the boards and this who argument makes this community look horrible.

 
  Gc4ever4001Gc4ever4001

Well this has gone not great.

So originally this was brought up through a more aggressive light, you can check out my screenshot for more information on that. When we had discussed this originally in a moderator chat, I had not voiced my opinion as it was not the popular one and I apologize for that.

Seeing how this is going though, this is a bit ridiculous. So I'm going to close this up.

There was a lot of drama involved with USB loader as it is faster and not legitimate. At the time of Veman using it, there was no such ban. Did he convince people that it wasn't a huge time difference or a big deal? Probably. But as stated in this thread, anyone could have timed it if they had questioned it and easily seen the difference. Even in area 1 alone, it wasn't difficult to tell.

No crime was committed per say, rather a loophole was used and not questioned for a long time. You can't arrest a man for using a credit card a lot for personal gain before claiming bankruptcy. A loophole was used but no law was broken.

That being said, I'm going to end this and not be a "figure head". Veman will be allowed to post his times on the leaderboard as long as legitimacy is maintained. I will be scrutinizing every run submitted, and I implore anyone else who has suspicions to do the same.

I'm sorry if you have issues with this or personal contempt from being previously manipulated or verbally assaulted even, but being bad or untrustworthy isn't illegal.

Apologies for not ending this sooner.

-Adam

P.S. You know something is fucked up when other communities jump in to tell you how fucked up something is.

the_ivo_robotnicthe_ivo_robotnic, HTDeltaHTDelta and 11 others like this. 
  KingRedEagleKingRedEagle

Although I am not happy with how Veman has behaved in the past, and I do know he knew more than he told, I do feel like what GC said was the correct answer... not because I'm happy with what happened, so just hear me out for a second.

Monado's situation got blown out of proportion, I think we can all agree on that. The thing that I don't like is that we want to treat all cases with the same action, permanent banning. It's really hard to see such a hard sentence being thrown around for every action, because we did it for one person. I would like to see the future to not be so frightening with every person who does something knocking the whole community apart and everyone having pissing matches over the issue. Yes, people have opinions, but we also need to figure out how to calmly address these situations. I thought the same thing with Monado, and even questions of categories and milliseconds ends up with hurtful messages thrown back and forth, and it's really unfortunate to see a community I love so much being that hurtful to one another.

I appreciate that you open these topics up to community. I like the feeling that not only the moderators have a say in it. But, this gets messy every time it seems like. Maybe this is just how it needs to be, I don't know. I do know that there are only so many times that we can yell at each other over issues before something ridiculous happens in the community and everyone alienates themselves out of anger.

To recap: I am not happy with Veman. He did lie over USB loader and didn't take ownership for his actions. I would have been fine with banning him, for that reason. I am fine with the current action though, and I hope others are okay with it too. I just would like us to figure out how to not lose our minds every time we talk about anything in this forum! Just my two cents, thanks for reading.

PS I need to change my notification settings so I don't get an email every time someone replies lol

MonadoMonado, HDlaxHDlax and Gc4ever4001Gc4ever4001 like this. 
  Gc4ever4001Gc4ever4001

@KingRedEagle Agreed. This goes for everyone. When we try to open things up to a community, people are going to disagree with you. But everyone should be civil and not jump to cursing each other out. It's embarrassing.

KingRedEagleKingRedEagle likes this. 
  NimbusNimbus

I'm in the same boat as KingRedEagle basically and I'm fine with this outcome too as long as it keeps a level of peace and avoids any escalation of conflict and stress. I'm also sorry to anyone who was particularly stressed out over this event.

HDlaxHDlax and KingRedEagleKingRedEagle like this. 
  DavidSkywaterDavidSkywater

As someone who only watches runs, I understand the severity of the situation, but a lot of you are acting like fucking children. I know a lot of you are friends and it's quite ridiculous to see y'all attacking each other especially Skozzy's comments to GC in that screencap. Personally I've tried to give y'all the benefit of the doubt in the past, but I can no longer support or pretend like this community is interested in what's best for the community but rather what they want. It seems that quite a few people have forgotten what speed running is about, having fun, not getting a good time and holding WR. I'm disappointed with the lot of you for not being able to discuss this like mature individuals.

Don't bother firing back, I don't care what you have to say. This unfortunately has driven me away from the community and as much as I love watching the runs, I can't deal with your petty fucking drama.

 
  LaxxiusLaxxius

Omg dude the lm community is legit my favorite thing. This is wonderful!

You guys should do one about me next Kreygasm Kreygasm Kreygasm

Who knows? Maybe now that Veman is back, Monado can join too? OpieOP
Then y'all can have a big, friendly get together and tell campfire stories, sing songs, etc. Maybe someone will even get eaten by a bear? 0.O

Who knows? Anything could happen in this beautiful lm land PogChamp

 
  DutchjDutchj

I don't consider myself part of the LM community, but I've been watching this thing unfold and I can't help but draw some parallels to a situation we had in the SMS community.

On the Sunshine leaderbards a person lied about having a certain time. Eventually enough people were skeptical of it that the person gave in and admitted to lying. A while later they wanted to submit a legit run. The moderators unanimously allowed this person to post times, which greatly upset some people in the community. This ended up being quite messy, and took a while to rectify itself.

I think the key difference with this situation is that the mods were not able to come to an agreement. The moderators should be trusted and informed people in the community, as such I believe that their judgement should be final. Since in this case the mods weren't able to agree on the issue, it seems the situation was kind of dumped onto the community, which I don't think is the right thing to do. There should be some civil process in place for the moderators to come to a decision in these situations. At the same time you can never please everyone, and this should not be the goal.

I personally am against banning people from leaderboards, that being said I'd like to give my thoughts on a few of the points that were brought up in this discussion:

1. Veman never cheated

This argument is very absurd to me. While it is true that there was no rule against USB/SD loading at the time when his runs were submitted, it's very clear that he misinformed people so that his runs seemed much better than they actually are. In addition the point that "Anyone could've timed the difference and exposed him" doesn't hold water when 2 respected players (Bonesaw and Skozzy) both did exactly this, only to be hunted by Veman's fans and not taken seriously by the community.

2. Veman deserves to be punished

Some people seem to be rather bitter about the fact that Veman "Got away with it". This is an absurd notion, just because no judgement was handed down in the past doesn't make what he did any worse. This argument is purely based in emotions and should have no bearing on the decision.

3. What's in the past is in the past

Similarly, just because this happened a while ago doesn't mean that Veman should get away with this solely based on that fact. The punishment should fit the crime, I can understand there not having been one as Veman basically vanished after the situation occured. Now that he's back though, he should be required to face the consquences of his actions if there are any.

It's a little unclear to me what the current situation is, I think based on Adam's statement in Gc4ever's post, Veman is now allowed to post runs. I am of the opinion that if this is the final decision, then MonadoPurge's punishment should also be retracted. Their situations are similar and I currently see no reason to treat them so vastly differently. Feel free to convince me otherwise.

indiependentclauseindiependentclause, FiliVigFiliVig and 7 others like this. 
  Gc4ever4001Gc4ever4001

In my honest opinion, a leaderboard should be a place for people to post times and compete with each other. People make mistakes. If someone continues to cheat (or so on) then yeah a ban would be necessary.

That being said I agree with you, I wouldn't mind if Monado was unbanned from the leaderboards. I'm sure most will agree, but I'll chat with the mods about it later today.

HDlaxHDlax likes this. 
  DeathJohnsonDeathJohnson

I also agree with that. I was okay with the decision to ban him at the time, but in light of recent events and decisions made, keeping him banned under these circumstances makes no sense.

I have no idea if he'd ever even want to come back and submit runs, but it's the principle of the thing.

HDlaxHDlax likes this. 
  StardustDragon08StardustDragon08

Just saying Veman that's not how you win support.

 
  BluehitsBluehits

If you'd care to explain, that would be wonderful. You're shitting on my boy Skozzy, which given your choice of words is quite hypocritical yourself. I don't know you, but I know of you. It's not just Skozzy, multiple people have given their side of it, and you're no angel. You're just as unimportant as any other fucking person.