From the rules: "and ends when you have passed all the missions that appear with a permanent radar icon"

End of the Line part 1 is marked with a permanent radar icon, however it isn't done. Therefore all runs that do this skip haven't actually met the requirements, since EotL p1 2 and 3 are actually separate missions with the same name and not one big mission.

I completely agree with this. I would not want the rules amended to allow these runs, I can already see that happening in my head. Duping and skipping missions really doesn't really fit in with the spirit of the All Missions category imo.

Nice thought but in fact, all missions get done. Eotl part 1 only skips a part of the mission, not all of the mission. I don't think anything is wrong with it.

Also, you set your 100% run as "no mission skips" in GTA Category Extensions but you used duping for skipping 6 missions in quarry. Doesn't it make that run invalid as well?

You used a argument that GT skip skips only part of EOTL and then you literally went against it by saying that duping Quarry levels counts as a mission skip. He still did Quarry, even if he skipped most of it's levels.

But shouldn't quarry levels be counted as missions as well? Players technically do only 1 mission in quarry but the game thinks that they did 7. It seems like the Eotl pattern. That's why I mentioned it.

Or I might be wrong though, w/e.

Quarry is not quite an EOTL pattern (EOTL is commonly seen as one mission, but in code is defined as three, to create the 'checkpoint system').

I do agree that quarry clearly is seven missions, and even though the definition of 100% allows duping here because only the "completed asset" (rather than mission completion) grants the percentage, They are skipped missions and this should not be valid for no mission skips.

You can do that in GTA Category Extentions.

Quarry 1-7 (or quarry as a whole) aren't missions. They aren't permanently marked on the map which is the requirement for something to be defined as a mission in this game. They meet none of the requirements for them to be proper missions by the current AM definition¤. But let's not get off topic

EotL1 however, does get marked on the map permanently, and is completely separate from part 2 and 3 in the SCM code (something which quarry levels also are not)

¤AM definition currently uses the word 'mission' to define what a mission is, this should be fixed.

@s. If that's the case, I agree with your suggestion then.

You could make/request a category titled All missions EOTL pt1 skip, add it to the category extensions and renavigate such runs

Extremely unnecessary to make new categories

You just dont want to verify long runs right Ben? ffzSmilin

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since eotl1 is its own mission

You speak with a lot of confidence. My comment on it on Discord:

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The Code (TM) is conflicted on wheter eotl 1 is a mission: [It is defined with] DEFINE MISSION and [started with] LOAD_AND_LAUNCH_MISSION_INTERNAL. But:
REGISTER_MISSION_PASSED is only used in FINALEC. So - is it one mission or multiple?

I don't care enough to write more but don't pretend that this is easy when there has been a 70+ line discussion about it.

[7:24 PM] Powdinet: what the hell I thought it was script for some reason
[7:25 PM] Patrick: Powdinet is a liar. :smile:
[7:25 PM] Powdinet: oh I know why
[7:25 PM] Powdinet: because GTA IV code does have LOAD_AND_LAUNCH_SCRIPT
[7:25 PM] Powdinet: god damnit
[7:25 PM] Patrick: S, why is the fact that some other game uses REGISTER_MISSION_PASSED as its sole criterion relevant for this discussion?
[7:26 PM] Patrick: let's set those aside
[7:26 PM] S.: it isnt
[7:26 PM] S.: which is my point
[7:26 PM] S.: your post writes about that, but it is not relevant
[7:26 PM] Nick007J: why is definition of a mission by R¤ a point here?
[7:26 PM] Patrick: what isn't?
[7:26 PM] Nick007J: R¤ defines mission as a script that requires being loaded from disk
[7:27 PM] Patrick: The point is that The Code (TM) is conflicted about whether EOTL 1 is a mission or not.(edited)
[7:27 PM] S.: in what way is it conflicted
[7:27 PM] Powdinet: external scripts don't have to be loaded from disk?
[7:27 PM] S.: eotl1 is as separate from eotl2 as fish in a barrel is
[7:27 PM] Nick007J: they are streamed and are processed completely different from missions
[7:27 PM] Powdinet: I see
[7:28 PM] Nick007J: mission upon launch is loaded immediately, blocking any processing
[7:28 PM] Nick007J: streamed script, as any streamed entity, is loaded asynchronously
[7:30 PM] S.: question nick:
[7:30 PM] S.: is Amphibious Assault 'not enough lung capacity' a separate script from proper Ambihibiopus assault
[7:30 PM] Nick007J: no
[7:30 PM] Patrick: I am confused, S, I'll just rephrase my question: I say that The Code (TM) is conflicted on wheter eotl 1 is a mission: DEFINE MISSION and LOAD_AND_LAUNCH_MISSION_INTERNAL on the one hand; REGISTER_MISSION_PASSED only being called in FINALEC on the other hand.
[7:30 PM] Nick007J: however, I'll check
[7:30 PM] Nick007J: I know that fat CJ cutscenes are not separate
[7:30 PM] Patrick: What does VC/III have to do with this argument?
[7:31 PM] S.: oh i see what you mean
[7:31 PM] Nick007J: yes, it's same
[7:31 PM] S.: do king in exile / house party part 1 have register_mission_passed at the end?
[7:32 PM] Nick007J: also I would like to point out inaccuracy in current definition, which causes this discussion
[7:33 PM] Nick007J: well, not inaccuracy but it uses 'all the missions' definition
[7:33 PM] Nick007J: within definition of 'all missions'
[7:33 PM] Nick007J: what is a 'mission' is not defined
[7:34 PM] S.: ^
[7:34 PM] Nick007J: I think you need to add definition as a script that executes REGISTER_MISSION_PASSED (allowing eotl1 skip) or script launched by LOAD_AND_LAUNCH_MISSION_INTERNAL (thus not allowing the skip)(edited)
[7:35 PM] Nick007J: (it's worth noting that there is command 'START_MISSION' used by developers, but it happens to be pointless as it is ignored by compiler; it's unknown where it's used for SA)
[7:37 PM] S.: I haven't actually read Patrick's rest of the post $RIOT_TOTAL_PASSED_MISSIONS += 1
[7:38 PM] S.: could be even another way of defining it on top of the two nick mentioned
[7:38 PM] Patrick: ¤_TOTAL_PASSED_MISSIONS is also used as a stage variable for the races
[7:38 PM] Patrick: CESAR_TOTAL_PASSED_MISSIONS or whatever
[7:38 PM] Nick007J: keep in mind that this name is given only by community
[7:38 PM] Patrick: those names are made up, anyway
[7:38 PM] Nick007J: these are not R¤ names
[7:39 PM] S.: yeah, I think using one of the two you mentioned would be best
[7:39 PM] Patrick: there is also QUARRY_TOTAL_PASSED_MISSION^^
[7:39 PM] S.: yeah, but quarry and races arent marked with a permanent radar icon(edited)
[7:39 PM] Patrick: it is not named that way in CustomVariables.ini but it could as well be. :smile:
[7:40 PM] Nick007J: using one with REGISTER_MISSION_PASSED corresponds to III and VC definition, adding an additional exception with permanent radar blip
[7:41 PM] Patrick: I am just saying, you cannot argue that EOTL is a mission very strongly because variables that are used to determine which "mission" a sniffer starts do not always refer to missions.
[7:42 PM] Patrick: oh, actually, I take that back, Quarry is not that.
[7:42 PM] Patrick: the quarry variable is not used by the quarry sniffer, but by the quarry mission. ^^
[7:42 PM] Patrick: still, there is the cesar one
[7:42 PM] Nick007J: those are community names, so it would be odd to use them for a definition
[7:43 PM] Patrick: variables can be used as arguments if there is a pattern
[7:44 PM] Patrick: If $600 through $620 always refer to missions a sniffer should start, for example.
[7:44 PM] S.: 0318 kinda works for VC, although there's been much questioning over Distribution. The fact that it is used in SA for races/stadium events showed that 0318 was not a good definition for missions in SA, which is why it isn't used for its definition. It was said that 'everything with a permanent marker = mission' but that was before EotL1 skip was found, and the ambiguity didn't exist. Currently in the cateogry description the word 'mission' is used to describe the definition of 'mission', which should be a nono to be done when defining anything in any field
[7:45 PM] Patrick: Anyway, as Nick said, some video games are missions so "mission" is ...
[7:45 PM] S.: my main point is, even if it is decided that eotl1 is not a separate mission, the current definition of mission in san andreas does not explain this
[7:46 PM] Nick007J: "everything with a permanent marker"
you dupe a mission, leaving a permanent yellow marker, is it a mission?
[7:46 PM] Nick007J: it's so permanent you can't remove it at all
[7:46 PM] S.: yeah, the definition of permanent marker is a bit ambiguous as well I suppose
[7:47 PM] S.: all the more reason to add a secondary requirement for something to be a mission
[7:47 PM] Nick007J: I think a permanent blip should only be an additional restriction to some definition of a mission
[7:47 PM] S.: yeah
[7:47 PM] Patrick: I like how in the "discussion" thread barely anyone bothered to argue about the definition of "mission". People just said or even only implied that EOTL feels like one mission to them.
[7:48 PM] Patrick: tduva made it concrete and talked about the "user perspective"
[7:49 PM] S.: the problem is, while the idea is nice, user perspective is subjective
[7:49 PM] S.: an objective way (the code) should be used to compliment the user perspective
[7:49 PM] Nick007J: it is when it comes to skips like GT skip
[7:53 PM] Patrick: You could also use The Official Guide as an "objective" source, though, couldn't you?
[7:53 PM] Nick007J: blips are setup in script 'FLOW' as far as I understand
[7:54 PM] Patrick: some of them
[7:54 PM] Patrick: most of them are created by calls or at the end of missions
[7:55 PM] Patrick: I don't feel like discussing - TrackMania hype :smile:

"Add to that that even video games are "missions" - or Property Buying. So I don't think it matters too much if the developers call something a "mission". Property Buying is a mission for technical reasons. EOTL is three "missions" for technical reasons (max mission size; checkpoints; perhaps more). In addition, All Missions is defined from the user's perspective - "all missions that have a permanent map marker". "

So combine the technical reasons (the code) with the user experience reason (permanent marker). Picking one or the other just leads to ambiguity, since there can be things marked with permanent icons that aren't even missions (like destinations, targets), some of which will never even disappear anymore with duping.

Safehouses, arcade machines, eotl1 & streetraces are all missions codewise, so add the user reason "must have a radar icon visible even when not nearby" and three of those four things I listed become unrequired, giving the category a solid, unambiguous definition, which it currently does not.

Is there anyone who can either A) argue why this shouldn't be the definition of 'all missions' and/or 😎 come up with a better definition, and if they can't, explain why C) eotl1 skip should be/is allowed anyway?

Edit: To clarify: Current rules state this: "and ends when you have passed all the missions that appear with a permanent radar icon (all main storyline missions + Zero's, Wang Cars and Caligula's Heist). "
It actually already seems to follow the technical + user experience combined definition:
"with a permanent radar icon" -User Experience, filters out all the crap nobody wants to do that I mentioned above
"all the missions" -Technical, but actually, what is a mission?

This is what is being discussed. EotL1 is as much its own thing as for example Body Harvest, Fish In A Barrel, Vigilante, Lets Get Ready To Bumble & Country Endurance. It has already been agreed on that the latter 3 are excluded due to the permanent marker restriction. However, this restriction does NOT cover EotL1, so why is allowed to be skipped?

I'd like to point out that mission icons are independant from missions and sniffers. There's a few missions that you can start before the marker is ever there (Are You Going to San Fierro and Vertical Bird comes to mind). Would missions like these be skippable, if a method to do so was found, as long as you don't ever create their map icon?

What if another glitch is found that skips creating the map icon for a particular set of missions? (Instapasses are capable of doing this)
What if someone finds a glitch that makes it impossible for the game to create said icons?
"Permament radar icon" is not a very future proof concept, since it's possible that in the future no radar icons can be created at all. You could add a rule that that says all the permanent radar icons for the missions have to be created, but then you'd be restricting the usage of this hypothetical glitch

Just like nobody predicted EOTL1 skip would happen, nobody can say for sure the permanent radar icon definition can be circumvented, so while you're busy fixing one part of the definition, please consider fixing it entirely.

Maybe we can make the definition so a mission is what makes the storyline to advance, rather than technical missions which only advance % or give special items/stats to a player, thus saving the discussion about blip skipping and ambiguous definitions based on the code.

EOTL1 is such a mission, whether Quarry isn't. Ironically, Property Missions are such since you need to buy several assets to progress in the game, so it's a mission which is triggered (Desert Airport, Wang Cars, Zero's...)

I think triggering a cutscene.

Counting something that progresses the storyline as a mission is nonsense. Zero's missions and the Heist don't progress the storyline, they only add to it. You can get to the end of the storyline without starting any of them. Do you want to say that they're not missions?

Well, then each mission that _has a part_ on the storyline would be a more accurate definition.

The definition shouldn't be what is debated right now, the current rules are not being followed. Also on a less important rule based note, the rules include the part about showing swimming timestamps unless you skip Amphibious Assault, but skipping AA would be against the rules cause like EOTL pt 1 it has a permanent radar icon.