If we did this with IV:

Any%: Kyle: +13 Nord: +11 Ilias: +9 schA_de: +7 (video begins after new game is selected, so true addition is unknown)

Classic%: Kyle: +2 (video begins after new game is selected, so true addition is unknown) Itsab: +19 Greko: +7 Jolzi: +14 Ryedawg: +1 (video begins after new game is selected, so true addition is unknown)

My opinion is, adding on these times clearly wouldn't be fair for everyone for two reasons. One, three of the videos begin after the new game selection. Two, most runner's didn't immediately skip the cutscene, while a couple did. The original timing method has always stated that the timer should start the moment you skip the cutscene. Still, some runners started their timer after the fade in, the moment they can control the car. Regardless of what happens with current PBs, I feel the timing method should be changed to starting the timer upon starting a new game.

Edit: plus, because some people do abuse the current method of timing in IV, and also because IV mods have been pretty lackadaisical about enforcing this rule, I'd say we need to get rid of any possible abuse ASAP by starting the timer the moment you start a new game. This would mean the moment you select "Yes" to start a new game, you also start the timer.

Thoughts?

Yes, the start needs a new rule. No, it shouldn't be right after you press new game.

The first loading screen is extremly inconsistent it can range from 2-3 sec to over 30 sec. Your Video has relativly fast loading times but i had attempts with 5+ different loading pictures sliding through that initial load.

I remember you resetting your game and even stream a couple of times because your first loading screen became inconsistent, so you should know about that.

I'd say timer start on the frame "the cousins bellic" is visible in the bottom right corner. That's when the loading ends.

Yeah, that's the only issue with this. I also didn't consider when the in game timer starts. In this video, you can see that it must begin the moment you see a black screen, after the white loading screen(s).

I checked these times with Adobe Premiere: First frame of the white loading screen is at 0.12, I've compensated for this with the below times. First frame of the black screen is at 2.38 First frame of "Loading..." on the black screen is at 4.44 (impossible to see by watching the vid) First frame of "The Cousins Bellic" on the black screen is at 4.47 Last frame of "The Cousins Bellic" is at 5.72 First frame, during fade in, of the in game world is at 9.70 First frame of completely faded in world is at 10.66 First frame of the disappeared HUD after registering a pause is at 13.16 First frame of black screen is at 13.58 First frame of the menu, during fade in, is at 13.76

If the in game timer started with the appearance of "The Cousins Bellic", "Playing Time" would definitely not be 11 seconds, regardless of when the in game timer pauses. The consistency of white loading screen(s) can be terrible, I know, but is this also the case between the first black screen and the appearance of "Loading..."/"The Cousins Bellic"? I've looked at multiple videos and it seems it always takes about 2 seconds. Still, I feel the timer should start upon seeing the black screen, as this is when the in game timer begins, plus it's a much more noticeable. Loading times have always affected run times with GTA speedrunning, so is it really that big of a deal if it's only a second or two?

What do you think?

Regardless of what the official timing rule is, there still can be abuse, e.g., starting the timer too late, intentionally or unintentionally. Many of the current PB vids have this going on. From this point forward, the official timing rule will be strictly enforced (and as of this post, it's start the timer when you skip the cutscene, so please get it in your head to press whatever key you use to skip the cutscene and whatever key you use to start your splits, AT THE SAME TIME, thanks).

IMO, this speedrun needs a timing method which:

1. Starts upon the appearance of a clear, specific frame (first black screen frame following white loading screens, first "The Cousins Bellic" frame, first frame of the flash which occurs upon resetting the N64 (SM64))
2. Ends upon the appearance of a clear, specific frame (The current rule specifies this should be upon the first frame of the fade in of the final cutscene and I think this is fine)

So, what should it be? 1, for when you select yes on the new game screen (aka, first frame of the white loading screens) 2, for the first frame of the black screen following the white loading screens 3, for the first frame of "The Cousins Bellic" on the black screen following the white loading screens

mods should adjust the final run time if it's misplitted.

I would say option 3 or 2 (but I never played the game on PC)

2, but 3 works just as well, except 2 is when the in-game timer begins

Note that the ingame timer continues to run during loading screens. #2 could be a loading screen. I'm going to do some timings and report back. If it's not a loading screen #2 and #3 would be pretty much the same, otherwise #3 is the better choice.

ok done my timing

Note that the youtube video might have slight deviations since my timings are based on my dxtory recording. Frames could have been eaten by my compression before uploading or youtube transcodes.

The first pass is done from a freshly launched game, since there is absolutly nothing in the memory, the loadings are longer than 2 and 3.

The time between first black Frame after splash screen and the cousins bellic is 3.6 sec, 3.267 sec and 3.2 sec. In your case it's 2.09 sec.

^ don't you mean 3.6 s, 3.267 s, and 3.2 s?

and also, I think it's now confirmed that the in game timer starts with the black screen after these three additional tests.

yes i do. read the wrong line BibleThump

You have some pretty fast loads in 2 and 3 after skipping the first cutscene. I've sometimes waited 3 to 4 seconds (rarely though). Usually, I wait just about 2 seconds, but sometimes (also rarely) have had < 1 second loads like you have in 2 and 3. It's really a question of, do we follow what the game does or do we compensate for these very minor load differences? We could also just agree to start the timer upon seeing the first frame of the game world/HUD after skipping the cutscene, but there's something about giving people the option to wait up until any point during the cutscene, to skip and start going, which makes me uneasy. Also, who knows if there exists some form of abuse which can be taken advantage of during this time.

The start of the timing should be before the first cutscene because of potential abuse. Right now i'd say #2, the first black frame after the splash screen. Start of the ingame timer might be also a good point for an autosplitter (if that ever happens).

If no one has a problem with #2, that's what it'll become. All previous run's times will be left alone. We'll wait a week before any "official" changes are made to give people a chance to reply to this thread.

Loading times way too often are a mystery to me. The biggest one is after Bleed Out that can happen and cannot happen. Sometimes it goes by fast, sometimes not.

The same thing happens for a game that is freshly started. Loading is slow. And even after that it can be random. So I always used to start my timer after I see the actual car. I also can split after skipping the cutscene and it goes black, altough I could swear even that gives you different frames.

I don't care neither way, I do believe there needs to be a definite rule everyone does abide too. Altough this game is far from being so optimized that a few seconds in timing makes a difference.

Now I'm for #3 again. Because i did the same timing in both DLCs. What i noticed is that i don't get splash screens anymore, except for the initial load after starting the game.

Instead the first frame after new game is one single frame of menu and a couple of black frames with the mission name ...clean and serene/i luv lc. The dots indicate that both should happen after the cutscene. Then after that black screen with loading... everything is the same as in 4.

TLaD

TBoGT

Here's what I'm seeing:

TLAD Load 1: timer starts on first frame of black frame after splash at 19,383, ends at First menu frame at 36,600 (17 seconds, which is displayed in game) Load 2: timer starts on the first frame of "moving light Loading..." at 47,633 and ends at First menu frame at 1:03,100 (1:03,100 - 47,633 = 15.467 which rounds down to 15 seconds, which is displayed in game) Load 3: timer starts on the first frame of the "moving light Loading..." at 16,383, ends at First menu frame at 1:31,316 (15 seconds, which is displayed in game)

TLAD seems to be consistent in both its load times and when its timer starts and stops, at least when you start a new game on the pause menu. I'm aware I'm basing this on three tests.

TBOGT Load 1: timer starts on first frame of black frame after splash at 18,000, ends at First menu frame at 36,033 (18 seconds, which is displayed in game) Load 2: is confusing as it appears the timer begins at some point during the "sparkling" loading... Load 3: timer starts on first frame of I Luv LC at 1:16,683, ends at First menu frame 1:32,866 (16 seconds, which is displayed in game)

TBOGT is confusing.

Make of this what you want, but in my opinion, the timing method shouldn't have to be the same for IV and its DLCs. I like the idea of starting the timer when the game starts its, and so far with IV, no one has brought forth any confusing outcomes, so as it stands, I still like the idea of starting the timer for GTA IV (not either DLC) on the first black frame (when the game starts its).

I'm not saying the DLCs should get the same treatment. What this video is supposed to so is that in the GTA4 engine it is possible to not have a splash screen after starting a new game. If the rules say "timing starts on the first frame after the splash screen" how do you want to time that if no splash screen happens?

Yeah, ok. I've never seen someone not get a white splash screen no matter how they started a new game (in IV), but if it comes to a point where someone is pressing new game and instantly seeing the black screen i.e., the moment they hit new game - the in game timer started, I'd think this person is aware they're almost always getting this occurrence and they'd simply start the timer the moment they start a new game.

I might be coming off as a major advocate of starting timers when in-game timer starts, but I really don't care that much. We're already stopping the timer at a point where the in-game timer is still running, which isn't an issue in my mind, so syncing the starts shouldn't really be either. I just don't know if someone starting a new game in IV could ever experience something like what happens in your starts of the DLCs, especially TBOGT load #2.

This issue can remain up in the air for as long as it needs to as it's not a pressing issue ATM. I really would like to see some opinions from other runners, active and inactive. I know my comment on the 33 VD thread made it sound like I feel inactive runners shouldn't have a say in these kind of matters, but clearly this isn't how I feel as my final actions were a result of inactive runner's opinions. Plus, that reply was more of a "let's bring up a point which hasn't been discussed and see how people respond" kind of thing, fueled by seeing other active GTA runners making statements which got me thinking, "Hmmm, I should leave this reply and see how people respond."

I had a lot of stuff running in the backgroudn when recording gay tony, so it is more likely my fault. But after some attempts with different kind load on my pc i wasn't able to reproduce the no splash screen in gta4.