Runners! I think we need to have a discussion. So as of now, all of our attempts at submission times on the boards have been with the submission setting set to "Yes". Easy, right? Well, I was goofing off and changing a few settings around and discovered the "Quick Match" option listed with submissions (the three options are Yes, No, and Quick Match). I didn't recall seeing that before while playing the game, so I decided to play with it and see what it did. After testing, I eventually got a tap out on my first submission, at 6 seconds. This would obviously crush the current WR.
Upon further testing, it looks like the "Quick Match" setting might just add an RNG factor to tapping out rather than having to damage the opponent a certain amount. While playing with the same characters, and the exact same settings, doing the exact some moves, I've had results vary from a tapout at the first submission, all the way to spamming submissions and getting a tapout at the 50 second mark.
So here's the deal. We need to decide if "Quick Match" is allowed or not as a setting. It isn't a cheat, by any means, but also if it is allowed, it would drop submission times substantially in all categories. The only other category I think it could affect would be the Royal Rumble No Ring Out %, which doesn't have any times currently. What do you guys think? If "Quick Match" is deemed illegal, we need to change the category rules to specify that it isn't allowed, because as the rules are currently worded, it is my understanding that this setting would be allowed.
As I mentioned, I have a 6 second WR time on standby, but I didn't want to upload it without bringing it up with @NihilistComedyHour and the rest of the community.
Just for posterity sake, reference, and transparency here is the VOD on my twitch where I discovered and tested these things: My discovery starts at about 1:20:10 and I stop messing with it at around the 2:01:00 mark.
What do you all think?
As the guy whom stands to lose the most (a.k.a. the one whose current top times will be obliterated as a result), I don't have any overwhelming issues with allowing the "Quick Match" option for the Exhibition - Submission subcategories. As BryBad noted, the results of its use appear to be rather erratic, but it is a legitimate choice within the submission settings and when it cooperates, it yields faster results by a mile when compared to having submission simply set to "Yes." From a pure "speedrunning = obtaining the quickest possible outcome satisfying all existing rule conditions" standpoint, it checks out. Bottom line, I don't love it, but I can live with it.
Also, congrats BryBad on the soon to be verified new WR for the Royal Rumble! Well done, sir! :D
Since it is tangentially related to this conversation, I would also like to gather community feedback on the current Royal Rumble subcategories. Specifically, we presently have two subcategories, Any% and No Ring Out. To this point, all of the competition has been under the Any% subcategory, and BryBad and I in particular have been playing this subcategory using only ring outs to eliminate our opponents (pins, submissions, TKOs, and first blood are all disabled). However, technically, under the Any% rules, we could have had those other elimination methods enabled. The other subcategory, No Ring Out, allows for all elimination methods except for ring outs. To date, no one has run that subcategory. My point is this. Do we consider repurposing the lifeless No Ring Out subcategory into at Ring Out only subcategory? Setting the subcategory up in this fashion makes the rules and competition mirror that of the annual WWE Royal Rumble event, and clearly, there are at least a few of us who like to compete on these particular settings. The Any% subcategory would remain unchanged and would be open (like it has always been) for eliminations to be made by any possible method (including a "Quick Match" tapout), or as the rules currently state, "Complete the run by any means."
Thoughts?
@Megamatt79 my feelings about the "Quick Match" I think mirror yours. On one hand, it seems to cheapen the overall FEEL for the category and it just seems a little...lame...but on the other hand, your current time might just be yet another one of those runs that you can only theoretically tie (kudos to you for optimizing so many runs to the point where you can only be tied), and so in that regard I don't think it really changes things. Either way, I think the run is fully optimized at either your standard time or my "Quick Match" time. I too, could go either way with the ruling, but I DO think we need it to be clarified.
Thank you for the congratulations on the Royal Rumble, by the way! I still believe the fully optimized run to be around a 6:45 or so, which means we still have at least 20 seconds or so of meat on the bone for anyone willing to give it a shot. I don't think I'm done with it just yet, myself. :)
Now to your point about the Royal Rumble category. In the VOD I linked, you can see that I was literally going for the first ever No Ring Out time, and I found the "Quick Match" setting while preparing to do so. This discovery changed my course of action for the stream entirely, because I wanted a ruling on "Quick Match" before I even attempted the run, as obviously it would change things dramatically. Even though I haven't uploaded a No Ring Out time, I LOVE this category. When I was a kid and playing with friends, THIS is the mode that we played all day, every day. So I do vote to keep it as I think it will be a lot of fun to get it optimized. However, your idea of COMBINING both modes and creating a new category (or just tweaking the current Any% category) I also love. Throwing out people is still the fastest way, I'm sure, BUT allowing pins and submissions as well means that the computer wrestlers add an exciting bit of RNG that I am all about.
TL;DR It's up to @NihilistComedyHour and the rest of you to decide the ruling on "Quick Match" as I will roll with it either way, but we do need clarification in the rules for all applicable categories regardless of our decision. I also say "yes" to updating the Any% to allow for all eliminations, or alternatively, creating a third Royal Rumble category for this purpose and changing the current Any% to Ring Out Only.
@BryBad, just to clarify, I am pretty sure that the current Any% rules for the Royal Rumble actually do allow for eliminating opponents by any means, not just ring outs. You and I have just been playing it as ring outs only to this point. I was proposing a specific subcategory that is just Ring Outs Only for the Royal Rumble.
Regarding the No Ring Out subcategory, I misunderstood and thought that your settings search (and subsequent discovery of the "Quick Match" option) in your VOD was with regards to the Royal Rumble Any% subcategory. Understanding now that you desire to run the No Ring Out subcategory, I withdraw my request to have that subcategory changed. Instead, as indicated above, I would like to have a third subcategory for Ring Outs Only added for the Royal Rumble, with the two existing subcategories remaining as is.
Regarding the Quick Match setting, I can always just create a "Submission/No Quick Match" and "Submission/Quick Match" distinction in the sub cat, and through the Quick Match version into the Misc Subcats. I love distinctions and all.
Regarding Royal Rumble subcats, Any% currently allows for completion of the Royal Rumble by any means necessary, whereas No Ring Outs allows for a win so long as opponent is eliminated by some means other than Ring Out. I'm not sure the a distinction needs to be made for "Ring Out Only" and "Any%", because I remain relatively certain that using entirely Ring Outs is going to be faster than any combination of eliminations mixed with Ring Outs. Could be wrong about that, but just seems that the same fastest run would satisfy the condition of being "Ring Out Only" and "Any%" simultaneously.
As far as No Ring Outs in concerned, I've left that option open just in case someone is actually brave enough to attempt it. I got a N64 now, and will have a copy of the actual game soon, so it will be nice to try some runs of it at some point in time when the time comes.
@NihilistComedyHour 's proposed "Submission/No Quick Match" and "Submission/Quick Match" subcat distinction solution works for me. I second it.
Yeah, I can't imagine that us running the Any% the way it's meant to be run (including pins, submissions, etc.) will really change a whole lot on average, but the possibility is there for some quicker times. Doing a few matches with the "Quick Match" mode on, the computer players caused three submissions in total. The computer elimination totals weren't too different from normal, but the RNG is there to make something exciting happen. :)
A Ring Out Only category could vary with the Any% category though. I disagree that the fastest runs would satisfy both conditions. While it's true that the player will still be throwing people out, it's the COMPUTER players that are the wild card who can and will pin, or most likely, tap out other computers at some point. In my current Royal Rumble WR, the computer threw out 7 people. Of course that isn't normal, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility that with submissions active the computer goes crazy and RNG has them toss 5 entrants and tap out 6 entrants or something nuts, blowing the current time out of the water. I agree that the average match from each of the two categories would be similar, but I do think that the Any% category has the potential to shave off a lot more time than the Ring Out Only category, simply due to Quick Match. I'm okay with not adding a Ring Out Only category for now, but if we get some test runs and DO see a bigger difference, I think we should reconsider.
I think adding a "Quick Match" category to the submission section is an excellent compromise, and I fully agree.
I'm glad to hear that you have a copy of the game on the way @NihilistComedyHour and I look forward to your runs!
I got one more week of hell fam, and then I should be able to get things up and running and get this sorted out.
Quick addendum item. While I am still very much in favor of the proposed separate "Submission/No Quick Match" and "Submission/Quick Match" subcategories solution, I have identified what I feel may be a potential vulnerability and have a solution to propose for it. I'll actually start with the solution. Specifically, I feel that it would be advisable to require that runners submitting times for these subcategories show their pre-match settings to confirm that they are correct for the particular subcategory type. For the "Submission/No Quick Match" subcategories, the required "Submission" setting would be "Yes" and for the "Submission/Quick Match" subcategories, the required "Submission" setting would be "Quick match."
The reason for this proposed requirement is primarily to prevent someone from successfully submitting a "Quick Match" run to the "No Quick Match" subcategory. At first glance, one would think that the distinction between the two match types would be self evident within the match video itself. However, given the randomized/variable speed with which the submissions occur under the "Quick Match" setting, one could theoretically submit a slow "Quick Match" attempt (for example, for the Single Match subcategory, one that ends in the 20-30 seconds range) and it would have the appearance of a "No Quick Match" run and eclipse the current world record for the "No Quick Match" subcategory. The only way to confirm its legitimacy would be to see the "Submission" setting under which it was run. The same could be said going the other way (submitting a "No Quick Match" run for a "Quick Match" subcategory), but it would be far less harmful as even a decent "Quick Match" run time would beat a top tier "No Quick Match" time.
I discussed this over briefly with @BryBad and he agreed with my assessment. He further proposed that the settings screen be a mandatory inclusion for all non-live streamed videos, and for live streamed (e.g. Twitch) videos, the standard match highlight could still be submitted with an added requirement to provide both a link to the Twitch VOD and the timestamp at which the settings were shown on that VOD prior to the highlighted match. While Twitch VODs are not permanently retained like highlights are (IIRC they auto delete after 60 days), they should remain long enough for a mod to have sufficient time to verify the accuracy of the settings along with the supplied highlight.
Any thoughts from the community regarding the above proposal?
To Megamatt's post above, I also had another thought while reading his proposal. We all know that the settings to a match are saved after a match has been chosen. With that in mind, if someone gets a time that they want to submit, it could be suggested that they include quitting back to the main menu, and then go to set up another match. This would show the settings that were saved from the prior match. It's kind of the same as what Megamatt79 is talking about, but could cut down a VERY long video to a much more manageable bite to verify. I think either method would work fine though.
Brybad's suggested route of showing the saved settings immediately afterwards would work in my eyes too. At the end of the day, I think that we can allow for some flexibility as to how/when the settings are shown (prior to the match in the same continuous video with a note regarding the timestamp, providing a match highlight and pointing to a timestamp in the available VOD from which the highlight was generated, or by revisiting the saved settings immediately after the successful match). The most important thing is that they are shown for verification purposes.
