Isle of ManI'd say this isn't allowed as well, but I told this to Dea1h when he asked me about it earlier. Didn't realize there was a thread about it.
Taku couldn't find his password so I am posting his response for him:
Takumashii - Today at 4:44 PM I haven't raced in a while, but here's my two cents - S&Q, along with a handful of other strategies such as mouse use for epic fetus, co-op babies, etc are barriers to new racers getting into the game, and create a weird artifical tier system where some people are willing to learn to use them effectively, and others (the majority of all but the most competitive racers, I would guess) who wouldn't bother. It sets up a sort of have/have-not scenario that would keep me from returning to the racing scene for absolute certain.
See photo for proof that no content was changed: 
You'd have 9char and 11char, something for everyone :)
SRL race means no co-op baby, no S&Q and no donation machine. This is an amazing category now, all my favorite things.
Comparing the Item Tracker and MissingHUD is very very different though. The item tracker trails a log file that the game outputs, while MissingHUD injects code into the game to display memory addresses on screen. The item tracker is NOT capable of showing you what an experimental treatment or D8 roll does to your stats or what your current DD% is, where as MissingHUD will tell you the exact change in any of those stats. The only thing the Item Tracker does is add up known stats about items and display them (+1 dmg from pentagram, # of items for each transformation, etc) and is configurable to remove it from the tracker itself. It does however allow the runner to show the seed on screen without having to think about it. This is a nice to have as it makes validation easier if there is ever an accusation. If we want to continue to have the ability to do that, we'd have to force runners to show the seed at some point during a run. If we don't care about that kind of verification, then it doesn't matter.
In the end, MissingHUD is effectively what Cheat Engine will show you, where as the item tracker is a convenience thing that is not the same values as what you'd find in Cheat Engine. I think they are very different things, so you have to evaluate them differently as "outside programs" and thus need to make a ruling for them differently.
Either way, this is what I enjoy doing and I enjoy sharing what I find/do with the community. This is why I've been saying for the entirety of this discussion, what the community deems "okay" is what I think should be what is allowed and shouldn't be up to any single person. I don't think it's fair for the minority to dictate what the majority feel is "okay" or "allowable".
From what NeNess had mentioned in the discord about it, it's the 9 chars the mod allows you to currently use a D6 with (Isaac, Maggie, Cain, Samson, Blue Baby, Azazel, Lazarus, Judas and The Lost) and the BLCK CNDL seed. I don't think there is much more to it. This save file would allow Eve and Keeper to be added to the list of runnable characters for this (the save file doesn't have the 2 greed donation machine achievements that force the active item to change.
Again, this is a "niche" category that people seemed to be interested in at this point. It certainly should make for some faster runs as Ness has already gotten a 2:02 with the 9 chars but I don't know if anyone else has finished a run yet. Allowing there to also be an 11char version of it was more of a thing for me to see if it was possible than anything else, but it is so I figured I'd make the file public in case people actually wanted to start using it and/or doing both categories before they get posted.
I'm sure NeNessQuick can post any additional things if I missed any of it.
For the people interested in doing the Jud6s speedruns I have a ¤special¤ save file that will allow for Eve and Keeper to be added into the mix. So in addition to the 9char, you can also run an 11char with the other 2.
The save wouldn't replace your other file for speedrunning or racing, but since we get 3 slots, you could put it in an unused slot for these specific runs. We will also need to ask Zamiell to include the D6 as part of these 2 characters in any new Jud6s mod. It will not affect the mod otherwise as a normal 1001% file will just overwrite the D6 with Razor Blade and Wooden Nickel respectively.
The achievements shouldn't ever get unlocked on this save as they are from filling the Greed donation machine, so you'd only need to refresh the file for donation machine.
https://mega.nz/#!x9J2mTQb!XpWSHPB2td9sX_F-wI6zYvbtyR3HMM3KcGnNxkm2tyE
Someone like Scheming Antizoubilamaka?
https://mega.nz/#!l05T0SzZ!PAyovbdJ8CfUlZ2VNYiC-dT7Egl_BcBm_XoqCHuxZQU
Usage of this may vary and will more than likely invalidate your run. Use at your discretion. Don't be a dick.
Why don't these people you're talking about actually step up and do it? I've not seen you or Yama make a thread about this prior even though I've seen and heard you both talk about it at this point on multiple occasions, though you have made multiple threads about Zam's runs. There is no issue with you doing the latter, but when it comes down to win to actually doing what you said you want, there is silence. Step up and take some real action.
I also didn't randomly lock threads either, I closed threads that were talking about things that were happening in a different thread. There is no actual reason to have disjointed discussions. It serves no purpose. This was a mod thing I did. I also have an extreme bias toward the main 7-13 category that people run (i think it's bad) yet I don't force this opinion into it or the rules because the majority don't want that there. Instead I run what I want and will ask for it to be a misc category.
tldr; stop complaining about the mods in twitch streams and step up if you think it's necessary.
They both feel I shouldn't be a mod, and the story is that I pushed myself into the role. Feel free to push yourselves into the role now. See the mods do listen :)
There is an in-game HUD that does the exact same thing that the item tracker does, but we use the Item Tracker to pull the information out of a log file that the game produces. We are not reading any game memory. The only thing that actively reads game memory is MissingHUD which shows the exact number values of all stats in game and displays them via code injection on screen. https://github.com/networkMe/missinghud2
Alright, since the post with probably the most people agreeing in the history of this forum got locked and thus is gonna disappear without a resolution, might as well post my thoughts here again. Thanks, btw, sillypears, for your excellent moderation. You claim to not attack me personally, yet you ignore my reasonable points, claim I'm just out to have an argument for the sake of an argument, threaten to remove my insignificant runs because they used the way less impactful missinghud while not addressing the question of the world record run being removed at all, and then lock down the discussion without it being resolved. I question your neutrality on this subject based on the previous points. For the record, remove all my runs if you want IF it also means removing the TAS WR, I don't care.
If you think there is a need for more than a single post on this topic, then I don't think you understand the point of moderation. I locked them. The content is still there. This forum just moves them to the bottom. Plus, you posted all of this in an AFTERBIRTH forum, for a Rebirth run. Honestly, this thread should have been deleted, however the end result of the discussion is pertinent to Afterbirth, so it wasn't removed. To your point about MissingHUD being "minimal", using a 3rd party tool to code inject into the entirety of your run sounds like it is far less than minimal. It is also reading memory which we are clearly not supposed to have. If we all agree that any MissingHUD runs would be removed, yours and anyone else who used it during it would be removed. Again, this would have to be based on what the community would agree upon. From some of the posts, people would enjoy being able to reset on Eden and wish it was already part of the game. Also I wasn't threatening to do anything. I was merely saying that why should we allow one thing and not the other because one person thinks they are insignificant. The majority of people who I ask about MissingHUD actually find THAT to be a bit more insulting to a speedrunner of this game.
- It's not running the vanilla game. You cannot hold R on Eden, and thereby see like what, 5x as many seeds as anyone playing the vanilla game, drastically reducing your time investment to get a viable seed, creating an unfair advantage.
Holding R is the typical way to play the game on all other chars. The actual loop in the game code applies to ALL characters, however there is a block that stops the resetting due to the Eden token stuff (from what I can tell). The point of the 1 character record that Zamiell was trying to attain required him to reset and be present. If he had taken this method and got the synergy he wanted after 30 seconds, would it have been as big of a deal? He would have added about 1-2 minutes max onto the actual time it took him to find the seed. If he was not present and aware of what was happening, any time he was not present for would still be part of the total time. Also see point about MissingHUD as "not running the vanilla game"
- The first input of the run, holding R to start it, is done by a tool. The run is thereby clearly a TAS. End of discussion.
Would it have been any different if he was ACTUALLY holding R? Should he just hold R using the tool next time? Because if that's the case, then we're using a mechanic in the game (resetting using R) being done by him. From everything I've seen the Eden Tokens are the only reason resetting on Eden doesn't happen, as when you fix the code loop, you don't have tokens removed, which is negligible as the file I created (that a majority of people use and which is actually a hacked file and not legit), can be given as many tokens as you want.
- Resetting is part of the time investment for a run, whether it counts towards the time or not. In Spelunky, an any% run takes 2 minutes, but finding the good shop needed for it takes maybe 2 hours, so during the run, you feel incredibly pressured because the total time investment for this run was 2 hours. Finding the perfect seed is part of the time investment, you gain a huge advantage in terms of your resources by letting a tool do this, even if the tool had to normally reset Eden by going back to the menu. Let me make a comparison. In Dark Souls 1, you need to get a random drop weapon to start a speedrun. How about I just mod my droprate to 100%? On the actual run, there is no difference to any other run that actually has the weapon, so this is totally fine to do right? No, it's not, because it gives me a huge advantage cutting out the time spent on failed attempts, which are part of running the game.
The fact is, he is resetting. And he's not doing it during a multi-char run, nor is he trying to do a multi-char run, so his time investment is smaller no matter what. He could just as easily reset any other character for a Curse of the Labyrinth while waiting to find the Isaac's Heart and Blood Rights. I have a feeling the time investment for that would actually be greater, but he could do it without using Eden. This isn't Dark Souls 1 or Spelunky and I know nothing about these games. I know nothing of what making the drop rate 100% does to the rest of the game. We are all free to make a community decision we would all like.
I do not feel disrespected or insulted by what Zamiell has done at all, so speaking for "the whole community" is a bit pretentious. You're more than welcome to say how you feel but why speak for everyone when you actually spoken to everyone?
If interested in continuing this discussion, move to the original thread, as posting the same thing over and over again isn't doing anyone any good.
Locking as this is a Rebirth run being disputed.
So following this logic everyone can use that program for eden resets on 7-13 chars too for example? Like it's of course take less time to reset with R then quit every time?
Not sure how you got that from this post. If Eden is your 1st character I think it's fine. If it's mid-run, then no, I would say you shouldn't be using it mid-run as the precedent set in the past was to exit and start a new run. If it's your first character this would just get rid of the tedious nature and not impact your total run time since you remove any of the reset times. If you're referring to the AB+ that Firkraag mentioned, then we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
eur0pa provided me the framework back in March to build it. It was more just a thing for me to do at the time and I didn't think anyone would ever actually use it. I think it would be unfair to include it in multi-char at this point as all of the current records with Eden in them do not use it. For 1 char, it obviously doesn't matter. I'll have to attempt to clean it up if anyone does want it, but resets between characters are a thing and for any record that doesn't start with Eden it's actually unfair. So while Eden is tedious if you don't start Eden then I think it shouldn't be used mid-run.
Should do pre-WOTL runs next to really beat the dead horse.
I just watched it and I do believe the cutscenes were removed. I don't think I've ever seen anyone (even BrainTM) spam spacebar/enter fast enough to make transitions between floors go that fast.
I honestly would like to have a real conversation about this. You can throw whatever insults at this community you want, but in the end, it gets the conversation no where and people are less likely to agree with what you're saying in the future.
