Hey :) I've come across a lot of slowdown in Lemmings Master System recently. When I say a lot, I mean that up to 15-20 minutes worth of slowdown might occur in a full run.

I would love to hear about any other games out there which have comparable slowdown management to deal with, based on sprite limitations or other things that are humanly handled. I hope to get a good overview of the upper limits of popular games' management or extent of this issue since it's patently part of speedrunning, but with this much slowdown possible in my game I'm cautious about whether continue with full-segment RTAs as opposed to considering a switch to individual levels.

So here are the first numbers about this stuff. I checked a couple of levels where there is no slowdown at all. Running the IGT from 5:00 to 2:40 took 2m30 of real time, with a ratio of IGT:RT of 14:15.

In my WR vid, Level 8 takes 3:24 real time to elapse 2:16 IGT. This gives a ratio of roughly 14:22, which shows what a mammoth loss I had.

I just did the same level with screen scrolling and elapsed 2:20 IGT in 2:45 RTA. That is to say, that simply by proper screen scrolling in one level, I saved FORTY SECONDS.

My initial findings suggest that slowdown begins around 14 lemmings appearing on screen and is worse as you go on. Once 20 were out, I lost 120 frames over the usual time to build one bridge, even with scrolling, and 240 frames by leaving them on screen.

This is an absolutely massive headache because it puts all my current strategies into question and also means I have to consider immediately killing numbers of superfluous lemmings. It may be that there are some levels where it works out best to keep a low RR so that as the first lemmings enter the home, some more come on screen, to keep the total below 14 at all times. I have asked on LemmingForum for help because this whole thing could turn into a real bitch. I wouldn't want to end up separating runs into lowest IGT and lowest RTA separately, but at the same time I have this horrible image of a bunch of interested runners coming to Lemmings, seeing some absolute TAS-like screen manip and RR manip fest, and being immediately put off running the game altogether. It's certainly a valid skill to lower the RTA but do you think it would be viable to split IGT and RTA if these delays persist all throughout the runs?

Another thought is that allowing IGT to count on its own might actually change the whole game because with that much extra thinking/reaction time, a player would have far less problem in rectifying mistakes since the effective speed of the game is slower even if the game thinks its still running at 60fps :/

Yep, the relevant level 8 features no pausing at all. I'll do some basic research into numbers, try to get a handle on it, then make a little video once I'm done that shows the difference. The basic tldr seems to be that with a certain number of lemmings on screen, animation slows down significantly, and it looks like I'm going to have to start scrolling everything off and back on screen in such levels many times.

Oh damn! I'll have to buy a mouse and see whether it is compatible. Meanwhile my route planning has descended into chaos, since I found myself finishing a level way quicker despite a lower IGT, seemingly due to scrolling all the lemmings off screen during builds. Looks like I'll have to retime all my level comparisons with real time and go from there, though I had already started to prioritise lag reduction.

I have had one of my trademark berzerk thoughts.

https://segaretro.org/Sports_Pad

This is a valid SMS control pad. Apparently it works on normal games if you buy the North America version and is super responsive.

https://segaretro.org/Sega_Mouse

This is a control device for the Mega Drive. It's a mouse.

Can you give me a judgement on whether one or both of these are valid for use? My understanding would be that the the Sports Pad might be a grey area because while it's a valid SMS controller, if we presume it allowed lightning fast response (I'm not sure how accurate it would be though...), it might radically change how the game is played. I would imagine the Mouse would not be allowed since it isn't an SMS peripheral.

I would ask about the Light Phaser but I don't have a big enough CRT to do it justice unfortunately!

I've created an account under the same name at Lemmings Forums :) Meanwhile I made improvements to a few more levels, keep an eye on my Youtube if you wanna see them. I'll keep improving all the Tricky levels for a week or two before making another attempt, to avoid tiring myself out.

Oh yeah, basically Sega licensed the marketing rights for the SMS in North America to Tonka Toys, and they didn't do a great job with it not to mention the NES and Nintendo had much greater cache there with a few years headstart. That market was more fractured in Europe with the huge popularity of the home computer scene like the ZX Spectrum and C64, where games were cheap and lots of people did home coding, an impossibility on the NES. While the library for the SMS is way weaker generally, the slightly higher technical specs and quality probably helped, as did games like Alex Kidd and Sonic. The console still has a huge following in Brazil to this day actually! The SMS Lemmings port was a great achievement but of course that's why we only have 20 per level (which I thank my stars for lmao).

So far I have managed that bash glitch once in about 100 tries >.< It may be pretty much impossible in real time. No easy method found with the slide glitch yet. So I thought I'd destroy Lemmings in The Attic in a different way... :D Not sure whether there's time to blow up there in other versions but you'd be welcome to try and use the idea.

I'll give it time to see how my runs peak in terms of performance - if anything, actually, the latest Fun record is an encouraging sign that 30 at once is NOT too much, it may just be that the breaking down of each record category to its maximum takes longer than I am used to with other games, and since the run takes 2-3x as long as anything I tried before, that's only natural.

I run SMS because it's the version I played as a child :) My uncle introduced me to the game on his computer and in Europe the SMS was always much more beloved/popular than the NES, so I had a large range of games for it. I had been looking for a third game since starting Mercs, and preferably one whose secrets hadn't been discovered yet - Mick and Mack on the Mega Drive seemed ideal then I remembered what a ludicrously bad game it is for speed. All the games I run have been influential or special in my life on some level, but a great driver of my motivation is breaking new ground, making discoveries, working stuff out where nobody has been before. I did get a giggle though to see that Baldnate was the SMS holder, since he and I are both Mercs players too. To be honest I had even been wanting to run Bubble Bobble SMS, but 200 levels at once would be utterly unwieldy, which is a shame.

Also interestingly I was practising Go For It the other day and managed to unintentionally execute the Slide Glitch which is mentioned in DOS and which I've seen on TASes such as

If I find a method to reliably pull this off any good percentage of the time it would leave mega amounts of time in the bank as a way to save in a few levels for Tricky and possibly Taxing!

And I just found this little gem too:

I hear what you're saying but having just done the set for Tricky, certainly getting through to 30 unscathed feels like it's going to be quite an intense job, because it's very possible to lose 5-10 minutes just if one level goes pear shaped a few times as happened to me. I suppose we can give it a few months to see how optimised I can make a full set run, but I feel like if after that, the best I can do is significantly worse than sum of optimal levels taken individually, it might be worth considering accepting runs of 1-15 and 16-30 separately, at the least if only to show the full potential there, and since a group like that will probably get more traffic than a 30 vid playlist of best solutions. Tell you one thing though, it was a big mistake to switch between Fun/Tricky in the same night xD

Mm, from my research so far it seems plausible that with the vagaries of the SMS controls, some 'fastest IGT' IL timed runs might not be the fastest way to complete, or it might be very close, because you can't adjust the release rate and perform other actions simultaneously. If I end up with concrete evidence I'll share it because it would be a shame to have any category or subtype of run being a fudge involving epic amounts of pausing, I'm not sure I agree that IGT is needed for IL runs in this case especially since one can either use a frame-counting emulator, or just manually time. I understand that simplicity is good but in my runs of any game I always strive to be maximally precise. I timed my RTA from the moment I pressed 2 on Level One screen. Between that and level start, there are some red frames, and you can move the cursor one frame before trapdoors open. I know that many games time their runs from moment of first control gained on a level, perhaps this could work.

I suppose the root question is, for SMS Lemmings at least (since it's so different to all the others), where do we think the boundary should lie for RTA multi-level runs. That may depend on how easy I find it to be accurate during a 30 level run, compared to a 15, or a 10. Frankly the idea of IL runs doesn't appeal, because it would be sort of self-defeating for someone out of the blue to practice one level over and over without having to show skill in a range of them. I do think that certainly for Tricky, it might be useful to split runs into tens or fifteens.

I've done a lot of optimising Tricky levels so now I've gone back to Fun. In Level 3, with an initial RR of 50 the first lemming will drop after 400 frames. BUT, what if I pause and amp that up to 99 first? In my published run this level took ~34 seconds real time, with a game time of 4:33. If I use this new method I can finish the level in ~33 seconds, but the game time ends at 4:40. Clearly if I want to get the final answer to things I'm going to have to make SMS tases for each level >.< It does however raise a point, what is the reason that runs have a sub category of in game time? :) My concern is simply that keeping this metric in, even though it's now very likely you can benefit from pausing in Fun levels, might be either misleading or to casual viewers confusing, since if they only see that my level time was 4:40, they mightn't realise how I did it, get a 4:33 themselves, and smell something fishy.

I'm lucky because I'm blessed with a ridiculously good memory; once I work a strategy out it's easy for me to remember it when the level is distinct in some way, and if I find myself with any weird blind spots I can just have a few lines of notes or some such. I don't intend to look at Mayhem at all, not sure what Taxing will be like but I'm very pleased how smooth Tricky is.

When I upload the video I'll add info in my notes, but among my discoveries so far for SMS lemmings: -You cannot change the drop time of the first lemming - RR increases only affect the second onward, and are best done by heading to RR, then dropping to RR-1 straight away, which tricks the game into going faster. Even changing up to 99 then dropping to 98 is better - explains it. -Bridges take 750 frames to complete -You can invert the usual 'make blocker, make him a bomber' in a level such as Careless Clicking Costs Lives, which greatly speeds things up.

I found some good playthroughs/TASes of the game, SMS and other formats, and I'm looking through them for inspiration or little pointers, though the SMS is so different anyways because of fewer lemmings that solutions will inevitably become distinct regardless.

http://giovanniviglietta.com/files/lemmings/Glitches.html seems to be useful as well.

Mm, I mean I've just done a practice of the first 15 levels, and it isn't that hard to perform the optimal strategies in a full 30 level run to within a very high degree of accuracy even at 60fps. Over the course of those levels I only lost maybe 10 seconds game time from small inaccuracies, and I managed to come up with an incredibly fast strat for level 9. I'll upload that video to my youtube later. IL runs would definitely need to be timed manually though (not from level time subtraction) because it's imperative to use lots of pausing. 30 small videos isn't a bother for me, my upload speed is dire and I can't stream so I typically leave full run uploads overnight. I feel like once I utterly master the set of levels, I can replicate the best times in a full 30 level run.

Ah lovely. I switched straight away from Fun to Tricky, I'm working out all the fastest possible times with some very aggressive strategies and once I finish that I'll go back to optimising Fun, since there is likely a bit I can do there as well. I've started recording my optimal single-level runs so I might bosh them on Youtube over the next day or two.

Hey! I want to run SMS Lemmings, the console contained the pause button in the old days, I run things using a Genesis controller with a start button built in. Do I need to map my PAUSE button to something on the keyboard to replicate real world play, or is use of the controller to map PAUSE acceptable?

EDIT: I noticed Baldnate's run has the required level percentages written within his splits - I noticed playing through earlier that I am utterly incapable of remembering the percentages, so clearly writing them somewhere would be helpful, but can you clarify where this falls regarding extra information? I might sound stupid to ask but I'd rather be sure since for me at least, having the percentages visible during levels would be a significant advantage.

Quite by chance yesterday I managed to walk under the dynamite on the vertical bridge in Level 3! If you take the rightmost position and fire at the last minute, you get under the crate just before the dynamite falls down to earth again. This is pretty amazing and gives me extra options even if I get pummelled in health!

Even better, I chanced upon a position fighting the harrier jet in Level 1, that causes it to not fire on its first cycle. The implication is that I may be able to save one M's use here, and better use it for invincibility later in the game, though I still have to check how much this saves.

This got me thinking: I want to avoid a power brick in level 3, be it from using the shop later, or avoiding the one tight right of the jeep. What if I measured the distance to grab the Power / M bomb crates after the second shop?! Just these two little wafer thin crates cost 140 frames!! So simply cutting those out and using M's properly on the boss in 3 saves a lot of time, and if I want one more M at the end, I can twin it with the health boost in the 8 shop.

I did something really nifty and used Exodus to view the sprites in-game for a full run. The aim was to get a handle on a couple of pickup's sprites. What was really interesting is that the character sprite is much wider when moving non-vertically, even diagonally is bad. But this does explain why a brief diagonal strafe into then out of pickups is often better. Here's the vid:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCN51zG-3po

Nate et al, you may wish to do runs of your own with this software on Arcade Mode, it might prove revealing for some blind spots or other little tidbits!

Meanwhile I appear to have conquered my problems with the turrets in L2, and often L8, which means I might have saved another M for use elsewhere. I feel like I should break 16:30 within a month or so!

Someone on reddit explained to me how you select Europe region for Emuhawk, so thankfully I can use that from now on if there are no objections ^.^

I compiled the list of distance to M's/medals/pickups last night. My work proved that using an M on the boss in 2 is utterly useless, and I found a gas mask just hidden out of sight in L6 that barely costs any time to grab, in the horizontal section - you'll see it in my next run. It costs roughly 50 frames to stay in the shop to buy one item. You can if you're quick spend only 70 frames for two purchases. Grabbing all the items at the end of L4 seems to cost about 60 frames, probably just getting the M then going straight up is workable. Most useful of all, the two M's on the islands at the start of L6, are the cheapest by far outside of shops, to grab those takes about 45 frames, and if you kill the three backpackers later on, that M costs just 50 as well. I found a way more precise way to kill the jeeps in 5 by standing lower down when using the Ms. You can't hurt the off-screen ones until they appear, but killing one of them as a priority means your bullets will hurt both the others together.

EDIT: I also found a super quick way to use 2 M's rather than one, on the first part of the L7 battleship, which when done right can save 4-5 seconds. Diagonally strafing an attack can be costly if you miss many bullets, but it's possible to kill the central part in just two cycles if you're quick which means I'm not even using any more M's than I was.

Beyond that, it's useless to bother with using one on static breakable barriers, the obstruction tank, or the blast doors in L8, but it is way superior to use an M to get past a single dynamite crate rather than switching characters, which saves around 100 frames, in cases where you haven't enough health to survive the blow. It's useless to do this on the 3 horizontal facing dynamites part way through level 3 though, since you have to wiggle to spawn the third and barely save anything.

As for the level 3 boss, while it sounds obvious, the quick kill relies simply on not getting hit - if you buy the extra power brick in L3 shop, it is just possible to kill the boss with one M before he reverses back up the screen, having come down. But buying things in 3 means collecting extra medals earlier (as seen in my earlier runs), which costs about 70 frames. I think the two methods are virtually equal so long as you double buy in either shop, and the extra power icon really helps for that boss.

I've also found a 70 frames quicker kill on the boat boss in L4, by using its entrance animation to move right up close before switching character. This helps twofold; since you confuse the missiles into missing, and your beams leave the screen quicker while still dealing full damage.

Just to let you guys know, I've been told that Exodus emulator is a far more accurate beast than Fusion - if I notice any differences in timings of enemy cycles, play etc, I will share the info. I am currently looking for a good emulator which displays frame counts, as progress in my runs has stalled down to tenths of seconds being important.

I'm currently doing the grind work of mapping the distance in frames, to all relevant medals/M bombs/other pickups in the game, as well as time saves possible on M use with various boss strats. I have already found a super quick kill on the jeeps in 5, which features in a run I will possibly submit later on (which is only 1 second faster overall). Beyond this, such specific route planning will also make it possible to draw up a table of the best medals to go for if you are targeting safety with health in mind later on. It looks as though (for my skill/weaknesses) about 8-9 M's is a good number; some are better used to give invincibility and some are better used to pummel bosses.

I have also found, insanely, that NOT killing any bikes or cars on the autoscrolling bit before the Level 5 boss, saves 150 frames. I am astonished at this!

I had a thought the other day that in the other games I mod/run, the points of 'final action completed' and 'loss of control' are simultaneous, even when I used to do SMW, so it's no wonder this never occurred to me before. Since you guys as a majority have an established rule set, I'm comfortable with unifying in that direction; I can still keep the original time marked on my YT vid but explain the rules applied here. :) Any of you interested in taking up runs in Original? I can't guarantee I'll ever be able to do it in ntsc but I certainly want to try once I've wrung the game's neck, I practice individual levels in emulator on ntsc speed and it'd be nice to have some competish, my time currently looks like a 13:29 on the faster version. If any of you know of any other suitable run n gun style platform-shooter games I might enjoy, feel free to let me know ^^ Now that I'm good at the bosses I think I'm going to revert to buying an M bomb in the shop in 2, and possibly save one more on the boss in 3, which should make life a lot easier later on. I still need to look for a timebound use of Homing's 2 M's though, perhaps if I switch characters at the last minute for the icbm...