hey

thanks!

Last week, I was added as a moderator to a game, though my profile isn't reflecting that. Only the game I was already moderating is showing. When I go to Settings, It recognizes me as a moderator for it... I can remove it if I want to, it certainly realizes that I am a moderator... It just doesn't show on my profile.

Any thoughts about that?

nice run!

hey all :)

new around here, curious about the state of things :)

looks like a new update since 2.1, 2.62 now. Some changes that are big! any thoughts about those? kinda like the game modes function now :)

https://twitter.com/litronom?lang=en

Also, I haven't looked at all of the leaderboards really, but I'm noticing a lot of emulator runs! And I'm playing on console, the RTA and IGT are pretty space out, and I do think I'm getting a lot of lag in the game.. curious about how that fits into the way the runs are timed and such :)

thx :)

edit: Actually, I feel like I'm even seeing different methods of being timed... some runs indicate one starting and end point, but the rules indicate another. Any helps here? whats the most accurate way of timing?

edit edit: Additionally, I think I'm confused about how these runs are being ranked? For 50cc, Skips, Grand Prix, Mushroom Cup, the rankings are seemingly backwards? With the Gold time being much slower than the Bronze? Any indication there?

Any consideration of using IGT to rank the runs too? Doing a little bit of science between EMU and Console timing, I think console has a significant amount of lag... Begs the question of separating the boards or qualify the methods. I don't mean to storm in here like I know everything, and surely I don't... But considering there aren't alot of console runs on the boards, it might be worth a conversation :)

Thanks!

^ Input lag can very much be a subjective thing. Different versions of the same game will have varying amounts of "input lag", usually in comparison to how it feels and plays on original console... But its just that, compared to original release. If a player doesn't have a a wide array of experience with multiple versions and has put time into feeling and playing the game on any version, even the ones with comparable input lag, the one they are most comfortable with is going to feel the best, regardless of how much input lag there is in comparison.

Tons of gamers would suggest playing the original to minimize this, but it really just depends on what you like to play. Input lag doesn't necessarily equate to time loss. It might for someone who is used to original release... but , by itself , it does not equate to time loss. no need to switch based solely on this if you are comfortable.

Browsing old forums today, noticed this would be relevant for our most recent discussion in the Discord. Posting comment to give this a bump :)

Looks like this is being considered! I think it holds some good value :)

There is a copypasta for this question, so I'm just gonna paste that:

"This question comes up a lot. There are three main reasons why an individual level leaderboard doesn't really make sense in the context of SMW.

First, at minimum, you have 98 different levels, which is a lot but probably manageable. But consider after all the variations (no yoshi, no cape, small only, all dragon coins, etc.), that number comes to over 1000. Games like SM64 don't have this problem because there's not an analogous powerup system that affects your strategies.

The second problem that comes up is that even if we did manage all 1000 levels, people would actually have to submit to them. 5[?] years ago or so we did have this in some effect, and the vast majority (over 3/4) of it was empty, and most of the submitted times were worse than a top-level fullgame runner would play that level as. If everyone uploaded their own level PBs it wouldn't be a problem but you'll have trouble getting a significant amount of people to do so.

The third and final problem is best quoted by ThirdLavaDolphin: 'The final problem is that those of us who are active in doing ILs for this game really don't care for it to be competitive. The primary motivation is finding and demonstrating new strats. If someone comes along and beats one of my times by a few frames using the exact same strats, that's great, but I'm not going to go back to the level just to shave another frame off if I don't have anything new to add (and smw's mechanics ensure that there are basically always going to be frames to shave off in any nontrivial IL). If there were a number of serious IL runners who want to have that competition (whether or not that group includes me) it might be worth the effort to work through the other issues. But so far pretty much everyone who actually does serious ILs and strat finding just isn't interested, and the people asking for IL boards have been relative newcomers.'"

This copypasta predates my involvement in the community, but I see it get thrown around often. And it makes sense to me.

If anything, I'd suggest using the practice cart and going for Gold or Pink times on that ROM. I think that's a pretty good way of meeting goals in ILs without bogging down the busy pipeline that is this leaderboard.

hey

gl hf gamers!

hmmmmmmmmm

hmmm... the vague idea has me pretty stumped... Not sure what to say, but I do like the idea of new categories.

Is this just Lunar Dragon but with.. less restrictions? Like including powerup incrementation/ACE stuff? IDK what else to think, really LOL.

Hello Gamers™,

Sations mentioned that starting a thread about this topic might be helpful to give a long form space to explain the theories and methodologies as well as give the community a space to publicly voice their opinion. I think this is a good idea as well, so I wanted to start one. Truthfully, these concepts still confuse me, but I'll give it my best shot. Hopefully sations can clarify or supplement where needed.

First and foremost, "time" is a real concept... though perspective can change the reality of time, and its this reason that it has been a struggle to find a consistent method to find "real time" in the context of this game. Thankfully, the game does give us an in-game timer to work with, but considering the extremely fast nature of some of these runs, having milliseconds present in the final real time is crucial for maintaining the competitive edge of the game and providing more accurate results. Unfortunately, the in-game timer doesn't provide that level of granularity, and with its variable FPS could STILL provide a difference between IGT and RTA. So sticking with real time as a timing means should be the standard in this game.

But what does real time mean? Well, its the real life actual time of the gameplay that isn't necessarily bound to the games measurement of in-game time. Seems simple. But it becomes complicated when recording, rendering, uploading, transferring, downloading, re-rendering, and frame counting begins. The way in which frames are defined, both in the rendered footage and in the software/hardware used to count those frames when verifying, can vary simply depending on which roads the footage takes between gameplay and verification.

Number 1, the game itself has a variable FPS. It tries hard (and mostly succeeds!) at running at 60 FPS, and graphically, it's not the most complex piece of software ever made, so it isn't rocket science to make this game run smoothly. But, really, consistent FPS in ANY game is a bit of a myth. Even in my experience running Super Mario World - which is run off of a cartridge onto proprietary hardware - the FPS varies. It claims to run at 60 FPS, but its more like 60.098813897441 ... and perhaps that is the short way of describing it. And even in those cases, the FPS can vary.

Every time the FPS varies, the concept of time changes for in-game time. The game can only be rendered in frames and if FPS is the unit of measurement here, in-game time is inherently tied to it.

What makes it more complicated though, is that collecting, rendering, and exporting footage is then bound by the the capabilities of the capture. Recording something in 60 FPS is possible (albeit still variable), but can take a significant amount of resources to do this. Delivering raw 60 FPS footage to a moderator can take even more resources, and at that point, the conversation becomes about access.

For most games on Speedrun.com, runners record footage and upload it to a service like YouTube or Twitch, and then submit the link to be considered. In that case, we as moderators extract that footage as a file and run it through a frame counting software.

The problem with this, is that there are tons of frame counting softwares! Some built better than others! Depending on knowledge about frame counting in general and what software is being used, your real time will vary!

In our experience and to the best of our knowledge, that's why we specifically state in the rules that runs will be timed using Avidemux. A software that is free and available to everyone and has consistent and understandable methods in rendering recorded footage and crawling through frames. Other methods in different softwares or browser extensions seem to be more unreliable.

We could go through every iteration of this argument and find a different answer for each one, but without landing on a method, no runs would ever get retimed with certainty. There are a lot of arguments to be had, but we are landing on Avidemux to create a singular reference point that is consistent. All rendered footage should time to be the same in Avidemux no matter where you are.

Though this is the decision we are landing on, it is not the one that is necessarily or perfectly "correct". It's simply the way we know how to do this to the best of our knowledge and in a way that provides consistency.

I post this thread as a way of explaining the method, but also as a way to give the community a voice. Feel free to chime in here with thoughts, questions, complaints, praise, suggestions, etc. Surely I'm forgetting parts of this argument, but I've gone on for too long and should probably stop. But please chime in or DM mods for further discussion if you want.

thanks,

peachy

@Mingura666 Brilliant!

Yeah, this is common in a lot of speed games. LINK05 is right, many of which are older... Wookis is also right, its not like any of these are incredibly groundbreaking by TODAY's standards.

You gotta recognize the history of speedrunning to understand the validity in runs like these, in some cases, capturing footage was not as accessible as it is now... in the event that footage was captured, its entirely possible that that data has since died because the servers they were hosted on have dissolved.

additionally, SRC has not been the home of speedrunning leaderboards for the duration of speedrunning history, translating data between platforms, ESPECIALLY for a game as popular as this, is a challenge and things can go wrong.

I also think its important to KEEP these milestones, as they document how the game has evolved IN the timeline that it has evolved. Knowing that someone got X time Y amount of years ago can be helpful for a lot of perspective for many runners. And speedrunning is generally a "new" sport, if we start erasing portions of history now, we begin to chip away its validity.

Im a SMW runner, and we have a lot of runs like this, but they are usually in the context of being witnessed by blossoming moderators of the community. If we invalidate these runs now, we begin to invalidate the progress we've made since then.

Even still, if someone comes in today and claims a top 10 spot without footage, it will likely be declined because of the context... But 10+ years ago is different context.

ty again @BostonBrew ! That makes a lot of sense, I've heard pretty iffy things about the Switch platform for a lot of those games lol. Curious to see if it increases the exposure for a run though hmm... ty much!

ty @BostonBrew ! it does feel so much more natural that way. The other way just feels strange lol. I got a Brawler 64 and Hori sitting around too, I may give those a whirl for the fun of it. Thx for the help!

Also a little curious if playing this on Switch will now be added as a platform for submissions? I actually have an N64 and everdrive, so I won't be playing on Switch, but I find it funny that I learn about this game as an N64 game right around the time they release it for Switch online and I was oblivious to it happening xD.

I wonder if this will spark some interest in some new runs!

Hey all! Not even really sure how active this community is, but my buddy showed me this game the other night on N64 and was blown away.... Believe it or not, this is WITHOUT realizing that Sin and Punishment had been added to the Switch Online lineup recently, but in any event, the game was amazing and we thought about submitting a Co-Op run one of these days.

I'm curious, for the N64 players, what controller grip is being used in the community? We played a co-op run where we both on OEM controller and holding it with our Left hand of joystick and Right hand on A+B+C buttons... We read the Wikipedia page after the fact and realized that the game was designed specifically with the intent to have a Left or Right handed option.

So the next day I try some of it out with my right hand on the joystick and its a different vibe, to say the least. On one hand, it almost seems more natural in context of the mechanics of this game... using left hand to maneuver the character and right hand to aim and shoot is somewhat more akin to modern shooters on console... as a SNES runner, having a Dpad on my left hand is slightly less confusing that C buttons on my right... but, as an American kid thats only EVER played on N64 with my left hand on Joystick and right on C buttons, the alternate grip is also disorienting, and I'm not sure what to really think about it LOL.

Im curious if the community has insight to the differences between these setups and if one is more or less preferred!

Really interested in this game, hoping to learn more! Thanks

legendary PB right here