CanadaProposal: Make the timing for ASPLAB speedruns end on whichever last relevant objective is completed (res penalty if it's Kitava, clicking "ascend" on the plaque if it's lab, consuming the last skill book if it's a skill point)
A while ago, I wrote a wall of text arguing for this, but at the time I felt pretty entitled to having my opinion heard so I came off like an asshole. I'd like to apologize to anyone was offput by my behavior. I admittedly haven't went back and read what I wrote, or I'd probably implode into a black hole of cringe.
These days, I don't really have as strong of an opinion and I'd be fine with the rules staying the same, but I figured I'd still write this so that a record of an actual rational and measured argument exists.
The reason why I think runs should be timed this way is because it makes more sense given the context of how PoE is played. It's a character building game. Getting to your character to x point, regardless of the order, should be the stated objective in a game like PoE, in my opinion.
Others have mentioned that finishing the run by defeating the big bad, Kitava, is thematically appropriate for the speedrun. Indeed, in a category like SM64 120 Star, it's mandatory to collect 119 of the 120 stars before entering the final stage, getting the last red coin star, defeating Bowser, and rolling the credits. If you don't follow this order, your run isn't a valid 120 Star run. However, I don't feel the need to ascribe the same importance to Kitava that SM64 ascribes to Bowser. In PoE, defeating Kitava is merely an unlock (namely, A6 or maps) in an infinitely-scaling game.
It should be noted that I'm not particularly interested in making the run easier, flexible, or more forgiving. There's nothing inherently wrong with disqualifying a run that forgets a skill point, as there's plenty of downtime where you can type /passives. There's also nothing inherently wrong with enforcing an order of merc lab -> A10 Kitava. However, given how character progression is the central part of PoE, particularly in ASPLAB (in a boss rush, defeating the boss is undoubtedly the central goal - it's literally in the name), I feel like these restrictions, while not inherently flawed, are unnecessary and could be removed.
As a final note, I also think races (if they ever happen again lol) should be changed in the same way, so that in my ideal world, speedruns and races are consistent with how they are timed. You could argue that it makes the spectator experience worse if it's possible for two players to both be on Kitava, but progressed to different degrees. However, the optimal order is to save Kitava for last anyways, so this won't be a problem in 99% of situations, especially with top players, who usually won't forget anything.
What do you guys think about changing IL category timings to start when the level fully loads in (instead of on first input or touching the ground) to be more consistent with full game timing? This would involve:
- Retiming all IL runs (which I'll volunteer to do since I haven't logged in to verify anything in a while)
- Unverifying all IL runs that do not contain any frames of loading into the level
- Adding a fifth IL category, level 3 with the floor clip allowed, so that the WRs in level 1, level 2, level 4, and this new category can be added up to create an accurate community SOB for full game runs
This timing change would not affect/penalize full game runs on the leaderboard that do not show loading into level 1, because timing rules were less clear back in the day, and the +0.33s penalty given to those runs is completely fair and accurate as far as I know.
Now that b9gus has beaten my WR my motivation to stop being lazy about this game has increased so I will be retiming every run (as well as Mamey_Edal's run in the queue of course) onstream soon to ensure the accuracy of the leaderboard. Will highlight it and post it here once I'm done.
Hi, here are some tips for submitting that will help make the verification process smoother. Note that they are completely optional to follow.
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Runs will not have their milliseconds displayed on the leaderboard except in the case of a tie.
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Right now, Softcore is being treated as a combined category where the 'scuffed' Softcore runs are included. As a result, deathless runs should be submitted under both HC and SC categories.
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This will generally only apply to A1 runs. If you want to find the exact time of your run you can change frames in a Youtube video by using the < and > buttons. However, you don't have to do this because the moderators will find the exact time for you anyways.
(Adds +0.40s for space fadeout, the approximate fadeout time of Lockness)
Tutorial
8.70s by ccfst
Devil's Chimney
7.93s by ccfst
Slide Skip
6.02s by Calamity
Furniture Land
5.16s by ccfst
Orange Hell
6.14s by Stillow
Anvil Jump
6.43s by Stillow
Bucket Jump
6.24s by ccfst
Ice Mountain
4.17s by Stillow
Tower
3.91s by Stillow
3.91s by Calamity
Space
6.23s (load time not included) by Fm2
Any% 27s
No Skips 33s
Level 3 Glitchless 5s
I don't have a mirror of level 1 or 2 so I will have to rerun those.
EDIT: I made an improved version with a faster Level 2 and Level 4, dropping the time down to 30.30s.
Credits: JackCapel Deffar Usuario b9gus_b0y it0a
The level 2 is kind of questionable because I'm not sure if the quadruple jump is even possible (I'm able to get enough height on my fourth jump, but the one time I pulled the trick off, I wasn't able to move my hammer up to the tree branch in time, so I had to splice there in order to get the hammer positioned correctly).
So basically, level transition times vary from player-to-player, probably due to lag. Since gameplay doesn't actually occur during these transitions, I think it would be more fair to remove them from the timing of the run entirely.
To showcase this disparity, here's my PB:
My transitions between levels (periods between completing the level and getting to make an input in the next one) consistently take around 7 seconds.
For comparison, here's Deffar's WR run:
His 1-2 transition takes ~4 seconds, and his 2-3/3-4 transitions take ~5-6 seconds.
Of course, there are some downsides to only timing the gameplay. It would be harder to actually figure out the time of the runs, and the verification process would be a lot less streamlined. I'm also pretty biased because my PC is a potato, therefore I would stand to gain the most from this change.
My suggestion to implement this would be to create two separate time columns on the leaderboard, one for real time and one for in-level gameplay only.
Today I accidentally warped through the floor of level 3 while doing a full game run. I managed to reproduce the glitch and get this run of Level 3:
It's actually slower than Deffar's WR Level 3 Barrier Jump, but it's definitely possible to refine this strategy and do it faster.
How to recreate:
- Get to second branch
- Walk all the way right
- Bump the top branch to glitch into the second branch
- Bump the second branch from above, to glitch further into the second branch
- Bump the second branch from above once again. Sometimes, you will glitch through the floor
Keep in mind that steps 4 and 5 are extremely unreliable.
