United States- I blocked off Leo and Farsite 110%, kept Archon open
- I updated the rules to correctly say what is and isn't allowed, and removed redundancies between game and category rules
- I started verifying the runs (a bit busy atm irl so this will take me a little bit)
- I also started retiming older runs so the RTA time is correct, but I quickly stopped. Currently, timing starts when the ADA prompt is cleared (presumably at the end of animation) and ends when the Rift Jump button is pressed. That matches IGT start for everything except 09 Leo where IGT starts during the camera tutorial. However, IGT keeps going after the rift jump ends until the LB screen pops up. Should we keep RTA as it is now or tie it to the start/end triggers of IGT: starting when skipping cutscene for 09 Leo, closing ADA for the rest (specify end of animation); ending when the LB screens pops up (specify start of animation)?
- Also should we keep Rift Jump Only as "Rift Jump Only" or rename it "Any%" to better match the other two categories?
Looks like we have a consensus then. I'll go ahead and make the change to RTA-only,* no-time-warp default
* "Only" as in not both RTA and IGT categories, the option to change the sorting on a per-category-board-basis will remain
Update: Done I moved IGT runs to the RTA categories, renamed them to remove distinction, blocked off 100% categories for the first 3 levels (that only have required objectives), categorized all the runs by No, 2x, or 4x time warp, and cleaned up the duplicates.
Most runs were 4x with a few 2x and exactly 1 run with no time warp... leaderboard is looking pretty barren now! I'm sure that won't last too long though, especially with @Fireswamp finding new cheese strats (sub-1 min IGT Wallis, anyone?)
Unfortunately, we can only have one default timing method for the entire board; either everything is IGT or everything is RTA. Having separate categories per timing like we currently do doesn't work, we have to pick one or the other. That's what we're currently discussing in the other thread
No time warp is for RTA since 4x won't truly be 4x on most hardware, especially when on higher graphics settings and recording, but IGT would remain true. IGT's subcategory would be pausing. Personally, I'm leaning slightly towards RTA, but I'm fine with either timing method as default.
I already made the video quality change: [quote]Uploaded runs must have the game be clearly viewable in order for mods to be able to verify runs adequately. At least 720p quality is highly recommended, but lower resolutions are okay with larger UI scales. Please check with the mods beforehand if you are unsure.[/quote]
Yeah, no time warp would be the default option of that subcategory if we went for it. My laptop is far from the best, but it isn't bad either (i7-8750H and 1050 TI to be exact) and it tends to hover in the 80-100 UPS range with OBS pushing out a 1080p live stream. (Then again, I also have the graphics quality pretty high...)
And your (biased or not) 2 cents are good to share because we need to do what is best for the community, and who best to know that but the community? And I don't just mean that because there is very little community atm and losing even one potentially committed person would be significant (though that is the prevailing reason), but also because the site moderator rules literally require it [quote]The users moderating a game should represent the consensus of the players of the game. If it is evident that moderators are not representing consensus among runners, site staff may change moderation.[/quote] (And on a side note, reading through that, there are a few rule changes to make regarding the timer and video quality cc: @Blobofdoom )
Welcome to SRC, @Grabz
The RTA/IGT variants of categories will not be staying. There isn't an option to have separate timings per category. I always strived to eliminate all the creeper on the map on my initial casual playthrough, hence the idea for a 110% category. It's not part of the game as RJO/Any and 100 are, but still measurable with data in-game. It's really a Misc category in nature.
The debate over whether IGT or RTA should be the category default will ultimately decide the prevailing strategy (either can be viewed per-board but only the default will show on the all-IL page). Whichever option is chosen, it will be a compromise. IGT is the in-game timing method and removes the hardware barrier to entry. RTA is closer to the "true nature" of speedrunning where pausing can't be abused and movements can't be copied 1-to-1.
If RTA is chosen, a no time warp sub-category could be added for weak hardware. If IGT is chosen, a no pausing sub-category could be added to keep things moving. Both of these would further separate the playerbase, though. The big difficulty is balancing a low barrier to entry with high level speedrunning without making separate, enclosed communities.
The video requirement goes into that too. Requiring a full video of the run is standard on src, though minimum requirements vary. Some boards require 720p directly captured video, others allow just pointing a phone at the screen.
Saves In that case, since I agree there's no good way to do it, I deleted that variable.
Easter Eggs I think incorporating that requirement into 110% would be better, but I'm fine with this, too. We should be careful not to add too many subcategories, though.
Bloat If there's no way for us to set the default timing of both the IGT categories and RTA categories correctly, we should only have one set of categories. In that case, I think having IGT be the default option would be best. The option to sort a board by RTA would still be present when you view it. I'm in favor of not having too many cats/sub-cats, too. More could be added later when the board is more popular, but too many would remain empty at this stage.
Cheating I have recordings going back to February 9th, which I believe includes all my playthroughs in the game. Notably, though, it does not have recordings from when I played in the demo. That may be an issue. But otherwise, they are easy. The largest file is 45MB but by far most are <5MB, so there's no reason to delete them unless they had something that needs to be deleted.
Copying Runs Copying the mouse and keyboard inputs and camera controls perfectly is practically impossible. Copying unit placement, however, is very easy. Remember, pausing is part of the game here. In other games like Trackmania, you have to copy movements in real-time, but here, you can pause the game as often as you want to copy and replicate movements. Having a grid like this means units can easily be placed exactly as someone else. [quote=Fireswamp]The deterministic nature of the game means that if the same inputs are made, the same time will be achieved excluding some RNG elements. These RNG elements are rarely significant though and I believe the campaign levels have been set to give the same RNG seed to everyone.[/quote]
Hardware If my understanding in my last message is correct, then hardware differences would not impact IGT, only how fast IGT goes relative to RTA, making the issue less significant. I still like the idea of No Time Warp, though. I don't think there's a way to use variables to solve this.
RJO vs Any% Where do we stand on naming the "you have to complete the required objectives" category? Personally, I think Any% would be a better name than Rift Jump Only, especially alongside 100% and 110%.
First, use [ quote]blah blah blah[/quote] (w/o the space in [ quote]) to make a quote, not >.
[quote=Fireswamp]the game calculates the next frame and increments the IGT by 1/30 of a second ... What this means is that if your computer takes 1/75 of a second to process each frame, the game will run at full speed if set to 1x or 2x, but will run at 2.5x speed if you set the game to 4x speed[/quote] So if I'm understanding this correctly, that means physics and IGT are tied, right? In this case, when set to 4x speed, the physics engine is only running at 2.5x speed and the IGT would also only be 2.5x speed?
I'll wait for @Blobofdoom to get his response out before I reply further
I don't know why src doesn't support Markdown-style quotes (using the >) when it supports other MD formatting, but it doesn't. You have to use the BBCode-style instead, which is [ quote]Blah blah blah[/quote] or [ quote=author]Blah blah blah[/quote] (just without the extra spaces)
I have the exact same response at Blob, I didn't know it was possible until now and I think the best solution is to simply outlaw it
I also agree with Blob on this one, I think unifying RTA and IGT on the ADA Analysis would be better. Afaik Farsite is the only level with a prompt that activates upon reaching the goal like that.
I like that idea. We could make it a subcategory with Farsite and Mark V. I think having a low barrier to entry is important.
Those are both an easy 'no' from me. The rules will have to be fleshed out a bit and probably split into headings like this (but maybe a little shorter)
It looks like there's only the option to change the sort for the entire game, I don't see any control for individual categories. Unless I'm not seeing it, this means separate IGT/RTA categories aren't possible. But, as I mentioned earlier, you can still view a different sort by clicking on the header, as seen here
As I mentioned in the original post, I would drop 100% when it matches Any%/RJO. Likewise, I would not have 110% on Archon and any other map where incoming Creeper cannot be stopped
We could have both sets of categories for traditional completion (Any/100/etc) and in-game objectives (Activate/Reclaim/etc), if one of the sets are in the Misc section. I would keep the tradition set as the main categories since the objectives have their own in-game boards and some, like most Collect objectives, will be the equivalent of Minecraft Classic: Break Dirt.
All corners are helpful to verification: the top-left gives the creeper/ac graph and the top-right has IGT. Requiring none of the UI to be obscured, at least 720p (or maybe even 480p with the concerns about performance), and showing level entrance/exit makes sense to me.
I don't think the .rec files should be submitted for all runs. Just requiring it for the X places or percentile (once we get some more runs) would be better imo. That would lower the barrier to entry while still keeping top runs verified. A note that all runners shouldn't delete the files until their run is verified would let us request them for slower suspicious runs.
I think the way Minecraft: Java does it where you list the version as a variable and have subcategories for versions with major changes works best. I haven't tried it but there is a way to pull old versions from Steam using the console and SteamDB. This is done in Gravitas. I don't know if GOG has an equivalent or if the KC site has archives, but we could also share old versions as Recourses.
Every level has a single best way of doing it and pausing means that given enough patience, anyone can achieve that. I don't think we can do anything against that besides general discouragement. That's where RTA comes into play. RTA acts as a tiebreaker for IGT (and vice-versa) and getting a 12 minute IGT is much more impressive with a 15 minute RTA than a 2 hour RTA.
Does the game running slow/lagging impact IGT? I don't have time to check right now but if the timer is tied to performance, that would be an easy solution. No matter the answer to that, I still like the idea of a No Time Warp subcategory for more casual running and it lowers the barrier to entry since specs aren't as important.
I'm active on Discord in general but not the KC server, though I am in it. Looks like you're just discussing in the CW4 channel right now, do you think there are any chances for a dedicated speedrunning channel/category? If this gets popular, I think this having its own dedicated section would be good. A separate server is always an option, too. My tag is WeirdAlex03#5049 if you need it (also on my profile here).
[quote=Fireswamp]Sorry for the mountain of text[/quote] You have nothing to worry about on that front. I haven't hit "Post" yet but I'm sure this is much longer, especially with the headings. Honestly, I don't think we have to go this in-depth with only 4 runners on the board right now, but it's better to deal with this stuff sooner rather than later.
You may have Oreo, but do you have a watermelon?
[quote=Blobofdoom]I think an MVerse category for farsite would be really interesting, but I don't know the limits on it (e.g. can you play with more than 2 players, would we want categories for each player above 2 etc.)[/quote] MVerse is up to 4 players, we can add subcategories for 1, 2, 3, and 4 players
[quote=Blobofdoom]It would be cool to have a category for seeded/custom missions but I don't see a way of making that work unless seeds and custom missions get submitted to mods somehow?[/quote] Yeah Mark V worlds would have to just be suggestions submitted and popular ones get added (potential for CE if that gets popular)
[quote=Blobofdoom]I made separate categories for IGT and RTA because I think they're interesting as separate disciplines. If they're the same category do you lose the ability to have a Victor for each method of play, or can you filter for both?[/quote] With multiple timing options, there would be a default sort and the headers would become links to change to another sort (you can see that in action here)
[quote=Blobofdoom]A lot of games demand OST to make cheating harder, and most people will use OBS to have it on a separate screen anyway, plus they're free, so I don't see the benefit of not having an OST. Thoughts?[/quote] I can't comment on the cheating aspect, I just chose not to require it because it was unnecessary with a retime tool and that would remove an (albeit very small) barrier to entry. I don't mind either way, we could make it optional but recommended and just give more scrutiny towards those without.
[quote=Blobofdoom]I love the ideas. Do you have the relevant permissions to implement changes if we agree on a way forward or do I need to elevate you?[/quote] It looks like I have enough permissions as a normal mod to do most, if not all, things planned
Thread update 2021-07-14 I renamed this thread from "My plans for this LB" to just "Plans for this LB". Originally, this was just me sharing my own plans, but this has since evolved to everyone sharing ideas so I generalized the title. Original post below:
Here are my original plans for the LB before I discovered @Blobofdoom beat me to it:
Categories
- Any%: Complete the required objectives and get out (what Rift Jump Only is)
- 100%: Complete required and optional objectives (unless the level only has required objectives)
- 110%: Complete required and optional objectives and eliminate all Creeper from the map (unless it's Archon b/c its constantly raining Creeper on that map)
Timing
- IGT is just the in-game timer at the end of the level (or frame that last Creeper is destroyed for 110%)
- RTA starts when the ADA Log is dismissed and ends on the same frame as IGT
Boards
- Primarily ILs for Farsite Expedition, to be expanded to Span Experiments as well
- Also Full Game categories for Farsite and Span
- Main timing is IGT with RTA also listed (together, not as separate categories)
- Accept videos w/o onscreen timer, use retimer to get RTA
Mverse
- This wasn't part of my original plan since it didn't exist then, but multiplayer could be supported through sub-categories
Note to self: Don't reveal that I actually won't be born for another 3 months
Really nice, thanks for sharing this. No more skipping around trying to find the start and end points of that specific run!
On the All Games page, you can set the platform to iOS and then adjust the sorting to see a list of options: https://www.speedrun.com/games#platform=iOS
If you're looking for recommendations from the community, we'll need some more info on what you like/don't like in terms of genre, time, etc to give decent suggestions
Per https://www.speedrun.com/speedrunning/thread/6tgel, this is a general forum and we won't be able to help. You should ask in the Minecraft speedrunning forum if it hasn't already been answered
Check out https://www.speedrun.com/knowledgebase/supporthub/request-marathon to get it officially added to the site
Desde el Traductor de Google: Puede solicitar un nuevo juego desde este formulario
I'm working to add a game to the site and have a question about how I should define categories.
The issue lies between my plans for Any% and 100%. Any% would be to complete only the required missions on each level and 100% would be to complete all missions (required and optional).
This is fine for most levels, but some of the early ones only have required missions, making Any% and 100% identical. In this case, the ILs will only have one of the categories, but which should I keep? Should I drop 100% because there are no optional missions or Any% because you have to complete the entire level?
I could just pick one at random, but I figured I'd ask in case there is already general preference/consensus on how to decide this.
