You hold down A and press star

thanks for the response :D

firstly. i didnt claim that people wouldnt switch back to the normal version. I was refering to switching back to the original version in order to SPEEDRUN tetris. important distinction. you see going for gamecrash is something that you do for hours and it is worth the discomfort. speedrunning is likely not. (also you reset like once every 5~ min compared to a speedrun that you reset every 30sec on average. this means the discomfort is like 10x smaller)

so yeah. people have a reason to return to original tetris. and once that reason is gone, aka they've stopped grindingfor gamecrash, they'll be back on tetrisGym and the speedrun leaderboard will continue to be dead.

"The Tetris community is almost entirely focused on gameplay that has nothing to do with speedrunning." i partially believe you're right here. Most tetris players wont care for speedruns. But that doesnt get to the point. if TetrisGym was allowed atleast a small portion would be down to play a few speedruns on the side. that's all you need not to have a leaderboard that looks ridicolusly outdated, and is all i want. i want the leaderboard to be good with occational activity at the top, but that wont happen if the mods of this game dont adapt to what the community wants.

"All I hear people talking about right now is the pursuit of level 255"

• nah. people will grind for lines record or score record. no serious attempts (with any chance) will be made to 255 in the next few years.

"It's strange from my perspective to observe someone say that if we're going to add a category that is only possible on the original version of the game, we had better allow people to play other categories on other versions" -dont worry. im just stating my point from my previous message on the other thread. the reason i dont wanna add the crash category is similar to you. its not really a speedrun and too few people will get it and fewer will submit.

i do wanna say that i was conservative on the number of crashes by people. my guess is 10-13 in 2 years but it could be like 20, and i have a hard time seeing it be 30+

"it's strange to observe someone claiming there's an issue with lack of activity when Tetris is the one getting the most submissions"

• see, tetris has one the biggest NES game communities so ofcorse it has more runs. however you seem to not have understood my point. these runs that come in are by medium to low skill players. i was talking about the lack of TOP player runs. so this argument doesnt hold water.

"I think you should be open to the possibility that your feelings towards the rules on SRC may be getting in the way of seeing objective reality"

• i've talked a lot to multiple top players and generally the centiment is that the speedrun scene is dead because there are no members of the tetris community in charge of the leaderboards. you're actually the closest one to being in the community out of all the mods here. and you're not even in any of the discord servers where 90% of the community activity happens on.

i dont care WHY you're not in CTM, i was making the point you aren't in CTM and that's remains true.

also i'll add smileys to make my messages apear more fun and positive. in truth the reason im doing this is because for two years the boards have been dead. and there NEEDS to be change or they'll stay dead. im urging you and other mods to consider taking in someone from the tetris community. ANYONE is good as long as they're actually part of the community

problem is is that only like 10 people will every get it. atleast in the coming two or three years. i'd say half wont even submit it here because this place is dead for top tetris talent.

if the mods want add a crash% then make sure you also allow tetrisGym Cartridges to be used for normal runs. that is what 99% of top talent uses. Otherwise the top of the leaderboards will continue to stay dead.

It seems i never responded to thiswhen it came out. Let me adress some of the things you mention i said were wrong. While i was very harsh in my original critique. this stems from a place of me wanting to see this category grow and become better. but only seeing a lack of any action or change for years.

even simple changes to the rules like disallowing developer mode use in runs in the PAL version, That is quite litterally one sentence that needed to be added. But it has yet do be done purely out of lazyness.

• i have nothing to say about point one.

• "I can say that I myself have played Tetris every month for 4 years." It is cool and all that you play the game, but when was the last time you or any mod interacted with the community? That's really what my statement was about. That the mods "don't know what is going on in the community" I seem to recall you having an account and sending a few messages in CTM which is miles better than any other mod. But you seem to have deleted your account and any trace of it, effectivly errasing any trace of your interactions with anyone elsein the scene. AND YOU'RE THE MOST ACTIVE ONE. yet you have not interacted with the scene for what feels like a year or two now. (attending CTWC for 3 days a year doesn't count as interacting with the community)

• I agree. the tetris scene as it has been for 2 years now have almost exclusivly been focused on gameplay. And this is almost entirely due to the mismanagement of the rules for Speedrunning this game. you see.

2 years ago, Kirjava released a romhack of tetris Called TetrisGYM. since then, it has become the definitive romhack for Tetris with quality of life changes and every training mode or fun gamemode you could want. It is used in effectivly ALL tournaments.... And yet it is not allowed to be used in the speedrunning leaderboard. Since 95+% use TetrisGYM this effectively bans 95+% of top players from submitting to the leaderboard unless they change back to the original cartridge. And to anyone that has played with TetrisGYM for over a year, going back to the slow loading screens between games. the bad UI. the lack of so much quality of life improvements is just... horrible. and most of all it's a massive psychological hurdle to overcome.

In a time where this leaderboard needed to be more appealing to top players as a fun alternative between long PB grinds. As a chance to practice efficiency in 300k, Or a new fun way to practice your rolling up high in the 100 line category. This leaderboard has positioned itself as a cumbersome and inconvenience that only outsiders to the scene can be bothered submitting games. In the time where this leaderboard needed to embrace change it has gone the way of Twin Galaxies, being stuck in the past with outdated rules and too big of a barried of entry to be worth it.

Also ofcorse you know what the Tetris Speedrunning scene does. It is dead, and it's not hard to keep track of the happenings of a dead scene.

• the big20 thing sounds interesting, i should chack it out.

• When it comes to the activity. Yes you can mention that we have a ton fo runs. But there is a reason you talk about the quantity of runs and not the quality. And that's because you know that the top of the leaderboards are more dead than margaret thatcher, and she is multiple meters underground kinda dead. Looking through the boards. only 1 or 2 Runs out of the TOP 50 on each of the 3 main categories have been run THIS YEAR. you get how bad that is?!? it would be more fine if it was a scene where strategies and developements doesnt change much. But tetris has seen a MASSIVE skill jump in the last 2 years. Yet still no movement near the top. This again directly ties back to being a result of disallowing TetrisGYM

you mention that we see a run each week. But you seem to not mention that it's rare that people grind tetris runs and improve their PBs over time. People simply come, play tetris for a day or two. get a PB. And never play tetris again and leave. That's not the sign of an active community. That's a sign that Tetris for the NES is widely available in retrogaming spheres and the barrier to entry for runs is very low. Given the massive sucess of Tetris i am not surprised it is among the top of NES games in Quantity. But with the PB focused Scene it has that can even rival SMB1 in activity (#1 ranked NES game right?) it should have a way more active speedrunning scene than it does today.

I think i mentioned everything i wanted to say. sorry about the lengths. i have had plenty of gripes with moderation choices.

nothing is going to happen because the tetris mods dont play tetris and hence dont know what is going on in the community. maybe if someone who gave a shit about the scene were to be in charge we'd see some change or some activity atleast

It's been almost a week with no update on the rule situation. Please update the rules

i think having TetrisGym Category Extensions for every type but where the gameplay is the identical to normal runs just sounds like a dumb idea, better disallow it outright

Using this, Here's the new 300k PAL WR preformed on original cart, original NES original controller:

In the Original PAL cartridge, if a player holds Select while placing piece it gives the player 10,000 points which means you can get a PAL maxout in under 10 lines.

This seems like something that should be disallowed in the rules.

Thanks for answeringso fast :D

i want to adress a few things

"-As a general rule, romhacks are not allowed on virtually any leaderboard for any reason."

The reason for this needs to be considered. which is that romhacks allow a player to gain an unfair advantage or allow a player to cheat undetectably. This is NOT the case with TetrisGym. All gamemodes which are not the main A-type mode will have it be displayed that they are modified gamemodes. hence the general rule may not need be applied to tetrisgym here.

"there have already been Tetris runs that were rejected in the past (not by me) for this very reason."

I would be interested to see which runs were rejected due to this, and if they were rop 5 times

"people want to use it for quality of life, which constitutes an unfair advantage (however trivial) over players who only have access to a Tetris cartridge."

yes and no. in gameplay there is no unfair advantage. but here is the thing. There is a mode in TetrisGym for this exact reason that is called "Qual Mode" and it puts the cutscenes and other thigns back into the game. This makes the use of tetrisGym and a normal tetris Cart identical. if there is a problem with the cutscnes being skipped then players can just be made to put them back in.

If there is problem with TetrisGym having unfair advantages then THIS would be the solution. As the name implies. This mode is used for CTM, CTP, and ALL online tournaments that use Timed Qualifier system.

"it seems extremely unlikely that anyone would get a world record without specifically aiming for it"

they could aim for it. but NOT nessesarily aim for it to be put on this leaderboard. A Top Tetris player (as it currently stands) might not go for records that follow the rules here. instead using the rules for fair competative play layed out in CTM, CTL, or CTP. the Speedrun leaderboards here are not considered an authority at all.

and here i think is the main thing.

If anyone decides to revive speedrunning in the Tetris Scene (by speedrunning and getting friends to do it too) then this leaderboard would likely be left behind Similar to Twin Galaxies Which currently has under 20 maxouters out of the 500 that exist.

Because as soon as the speedrun leaderboard on here does not display, let's say 3 of the top 5 times or something. then someone will likely just make their own speedrun leaderboard and i don't think the speedrun.com leaderboard would come out ontop when it comes to accuracy

i'm strongly biased for allowing the use of it. Either with or without Qual mode, because i know what has happened with leaderboards and tournaments who refuse change

The acceptance or disallowing of TetrisGym on here is not a trivial matter like you said and it really needs to be clearly allowed or disallowed.

You can either allow it, which is what every single tetris tournament, community and leaderboard has done. (except 2020 and 2021 ctwc)

Or you can go straight against the tetris scene and it's players... which, if you want an appealing leaderboard for those same players... i don't think is the best move

i estimate that 80-90% of ALL top NES Tetris players use some form of the TetrisGym Romhack instead of the main cartridge. Most of the latest top runs and almost all future top runs will be preformed on it and it would be good to have some confirmation by moderators that this romhack is permitted for use in runs.

If you're not familiar with TetrisGym then here is the rundown:

TetrisGym is a Romhack that mainly combines a few quality of life improvements but importantly does NOT change A-Type or B-Type gameplay in any way. the main changes are an elimination of cut-scenes and Score-uncap to make the time between games as smooth as possible. This in combination with some seperate training gamemodes and a "SamePieceSets" mode for online Matches means that this romhack is used by all top players who are able to use it.

So is the use of TetrisGym on A-Type permitted since no gameplay is altered and in the base form there is not a single pixel changed that could tell TetrisGym and a regular Cart apart.

it would be cool. but perhaps a bit limiting to choose only those 2 combinations. Another idea is to have a Lv 18 B-Type Speedrun. and a Lv 19 B-Type Speedrun where you can pick any height yourself. less experienced players can pick 18-0 and more experienced players will pick 18-5 since that is fastest. same with the Lv 19 category. that brings out a lot more strategy in your pick and a clear path to progression in you PBs

Yeah adding new moderators is a good choice. Also I would be willing to help retime some of the top runs. I have time and the knowledge. I also don't think we need to add milliseconds to each and every category. Mostly the main 3

Here is my take on tbe maxout leaderbpard. I don't see a future where a Leaderboard on fastest maxout becomes popular at all. Some people might submit their games but most won't. And as a consequence, The Leaderboard will just be dead and completely untrue to reality. Sort of like how twin galaxies lists only 11 people as ever having maxed out.

It's also a lot of work to go back and add timers to games in editing programs since all runs would be played during general 19 start PB runs or just warmup games where you dont have a timer. This would further lead to a barrier of people not bothering to upload their run to the leaderboards because it's work for no gain.

Tldr. A fastest maxout Leaderboard would be cool in theory but won't work well in reality.

I think doing it for the top 10 times would be the simplest and best course of action right now. That's not too much work either

"i doubt you're gonna find many, if any, speedrun leaderboards that allow the use of GG codes because of this exact reason. There may be some special cases but they're probably not main categories" -AFT

i think a disconnect between the highscore tetris community and the speedrun scene is the use of GG codes. In the highscore scene GG codes to modify non-gameplay related things are used by 90% of all players at the maxout+ levels of skill. This is because Everyone uses the code NNAOOK(or ENEOOGEZ) to uncap the score if it reaches over 999,999. Most people also use OPIPEX which removes the long cutscene at the end of games so they can jump into a new game quicker. None of these codes modify ANY gameplay, and so the community has fully allowed the use of them on all leaderboards.

I agree with disallowing some if not most GG codes. notably ROMhacks. But I also think some should stay allowed. Codes like OPIPEX and NNAOOK that are the most common and that dont modify gameplay dont impact the speedrun at all. Because the thing that is skipped is before or after the speedrun starts and ends and has ultimately no affect on the run itself.

Also I see a fair chunk of the games by top players in the 100L and 300k Lines category are already done with the GG code OPIPEX.

Yeaah now there is a 3-way the for 2nd place in the 300k category. This is really needed

Yeah that's Ok. It's what basically all top players do.

It has come to my attention that RNG Manipulation is not mentioned at all by the rules, and therefore by default allowed. And I think this needs to be discussed and decided on.

For a recap of what RNG Manipulation is: In NES Tetris, the RNG is random, however that randomness is still predictable. If you start a game 500 Frames after the console is turned on, then the start RNG you get is the exact same every single time you do so. (there is a bit more to it involving the music screen but thats not important)

This isnt a big deal as the next pieces are determined by the time the current piece hits the stack. so if you had 2 games both started on frame 500 with the same rng and make any differing placements between them. Then the RNG will quickly branch into its own sequence away from whatever moves you might have made any other time, leading to two completely different games and completely different rng.

(pushind down also changes the time a piece hits the stack making the rng different to not pushing down, so 100L 0start, and 0-19 speedruns won't be affected if rng manip is allowed as there is no way to meaningfully do rng manip if the scramble the rng every single piece you push down.)

But this leads to the possibility of engineering a TAS on 19 Starts (where you never push down) for the 300k and 100 Lines Speedruns where you can be as risky as you want, even making dubious moves in order to force longbars at perfect times. You'd only be limited by your horizontal speed (tapping) which due to Rolling is starting to become less and less of an issue.

For an example of what RNG manipulation can do. Here is a video of a slow DAS player replaying his TAS in real time on a console with controller getting 1,504k points before killscreen: (). This was done when the record for the game was barely a 1,300k by one of the fastest tappers, and 1.5 has yet to be beaten by anyone, even as many people have gotten 200k and even 300k+ on killscreen.

if RNG Manipulation is allowed, then it has the ability to drastically change the top of the leaderboard category for 300k, and maybe 100L in time. It'll make the speedrun more similar to SMB1 where people are simply replaying stages trying to get the same inputs every time. But for tetris it'll be just replaying moves done by you or a friend in a tas.

Personally im mixed on if it should be allowed. most games i'm aware of allow for this sort of thing. it allows you to know enemy patterns, and in some games its impossible NOT to notice the game giving you the same rng if you play optimally. But allowing this will change the leaderboard for 300k...

i realise the millisecond debate has been brought up multiple times before. And i would argue the reason for this is because its an issue that really needs to be solved. it has happened more than once that the top 2 times are tied to the second and who the true record holder is is not listed.

After reading the posts about this issue earlier. The points against adding milliseconds has mostly been about there not being that much of a need for it. And that it would require work to go through all times and retime them. But i dont think the the either argument is particularly strong. You could choose to only go through the top 10-20 times and that work would not take too long

To make the task easier I would suggest as a default move to basically only count in multiples of 100ms, unless the player can provide a more exact time. It would be easy to estimate for top 20 times, and if two times are still tied despite this then that can be dealt with seperately.