United StatesPC speedrunning, for the most part, can never be 100% equal simply due to hardware. The point has already been made that FPS limiting is literally no different than many other things which are allowed, so I'm not going to keep repeating myself when it comes to that. Of course one of the runs will be faster than the other, because in that run the player utilized strategy/functionality which should be a part of the run, while the other run didn't.
The GTA IV speedrun can never be on a 100% equal playing field for a couple reasons:
- Everyone doesn't use the same hardware. Control and FPS are the main aspects of hardware. (and this transitions into #2 below).
- There are many different refresh rates to lock your FPS to with the in-game vsync, depending on your hardware. Unrelated to that, some players can't get above 45 FPS, some 35, some 30. Are we all going to lock our FPS at 25 with an external limiter for the entire run to get closer to an equal playing field?
Forget all the issues people have with v-sync, none of that matters, because of #2 above. It's clear, 100% clear, that the IV community will never have a rule which requires everyone to play at the same FPS throughout the run. It'd be asinine. It doesn't make sense, it wouldn't even work.
Frame limiting should be allowed. Underclocking should be allowed. I've made a ton of good points as to why. As I sit here, I don't feel the need to make any more. With that said, these things are aspects of this run that should have always been aspects of this run, we just didn't realize it until now. Even the guy getting no more than 35 FPS at any time can utilize either of these in the same exact way someone getting over 120 FPS can. No one is at any more or less of an advantage, unless they flat out refuse to utilize part of the strategy.
Are we currently allowing the use of underclocking/overclocking mid run? Is this something which is banned in most communities? If it isn't, and nearly everyone agrees it shouldn't be banned in this community as a whole, is this not basically going to give the same results that an FPS limiter would? Have the two functions become so close in terms of the what they accomplish, that it's clear each should be allowed? Or should we ban one while allowing the other, despite the irony, and pretend an actual point has been made?
I'm not sure what exactly you mean. What software, other than a GTA mod, allows me to prepare a hotkey to change the VD to a set value, and will change the VD to that value when pressed, all while running the game and remaining in the game?
Edit: regardless, changing the VD with a hotkey is literally editing the game's files with a hotkey, while limiting FPS at the press of a hotkey does nothing of the sort. This is the main difference.
The reasoning has never been as broad as "if it's possible on PC, then it should be allowed". Every example you've given, Jolzi, requires the game's files to be either edited and/or monitored while the run is happening. Limiting the frame rate with an external frame limiter, mid run, does neither, just as starting a resource intensive task with a hotkey (high quality recording, overclocking, underclocking) does neither. In terms of affecting the frame rate, software that allows you to limit FPS is no different than software which allows you to overclock/underclock your hardware. Each can be done mid run, and when has anyone ever cared about the later?
CPU/GPU: Software interacts with the CPU/GPU and allows me to overclock/underclock with the press of a hotkey -> FPS increases/decreases -> affects the game = ALLOWED
Mouse: Software interacts with the mouse and allows me to toggle multiple DPI settings with a hotkey -> it affects the overall game experience -> all along, sensitivity settings sit in the menu, untouched = ALLOWED
GPU: Software interacts with the GPU and allows me to toggle an FPS limit with a hotkey -> affecting the game -> all along, v-sync sits in the menu, untouched = NOT ALLOWED????
Please, people, use some common sense here. When a new case comes along, you first need to look at each end of the spectrum, those that are allowed and those that are not allowed, and compare and contrast. Are you really coming away after doing this thinking that mid run FPS limiting is at the end of the spectrum which contains things such as modding your game to give you special weapons, cars, etc., using cheat codes, using scripts to perform a set of inputs at superhuman speed, editing files with the press of a hotkey, teleporting around the map using the trainer, etc.........or is this functionality sitting among things such as underclocking/overclocking the CPU/GPU, changing the DPI setting, using mouse button which has been bound to a keyboard key, starting a resource intensive task, etc., all of which can be done mid run with hotkeys, affect the game in various ways whether it's FPS increasing/decreasing, aim sensitivity increasing/decreasing, etc., all being possible with both "official" and "unofficial" software and all of these things have ALWAYS been allowed and FOREVER be allowed?
FYI: Ilias claimed his "official" AMD software was doing exactly what I refer to in that post. I've yet to get 100% confirmation that he was telling the truth. Regardless if there exists any official software which has this functionality, there's still the point that many pieces of "unofficial" software are allowed to be running during the run, all of which are clearly affecting your FPS to various degrees.
Nozlar mentioned that Fraps has the functionality to limit your game's FPS to the desired recording FPS upon toggling on the recording. Is this really all that much different from starting a high quality recording which drops your FPS upon toggling the recording on? Even if it isn't automatically dropping your FPS to a set limit?
Even without the logic of allowing whatever "official" software provides, there's still so much more extremely logical reasoning which makes it clear that disallowing mid run FPS limiting is laughable.
How many "workarounds" exist which will basically accomplish the effect of mid-run frame limiting? Many, and nearly every single one can be used and defended with "inadvertently limited my frames".
Both, as they both are covered by the logic in my block of text.
A.
I've pulled this chunk of text from the thread linked above, as it's the most logical piece of advocacy for either of the outcomes which has been brought forth thus far.
*I think it's extremely stupid to disallow something that's capable with some piece of hardware and its "official" software. If there exists an "official" combination of the two which results in the capability to toggle frame limiting with a hotkey, it has to be allowed. I'm told "official" software for AMD GPUs includes the functionality to toggle a set frame limit with a hotkey. The question still remains, how can you determine if the frame limiting is being done with "official software"? You can't, unless we go to extreme verification lengths, which is ridiculous. With that being said, I think it's obvious even "unofficial" software has to be allowed as long as you're using it to perform the same functions that other, more "official", software provides.
This is the equivalent of a console being released which includes a button on the controller which toggles the frame limiter on and off. If a next-gen console included this functionality, how on earth could you justify banning it from being used?*
A fresh voting period needed to be started up due to recent developments.
You're voting on whether or not frame limiting should be allowed during the run. This includes both setting a limit before the run begins and/or toggling the limit on/off during the run. Before voting, I urge you to read through this thread: http://www.speedrun.com/gtaiv/thread/t2bv5
By voting within this thread, you solemnly swear that you've read through the thread linked above, read through this thread and all of the current posts, and have given the issue a large amount of rational thought.
The options are as follows: A ) External frame limiting should be allowed during the run. B ) External frame limiting shouldn't be allowed during the run.
Include your reasoning alongside your vote, if desired.
(FYI: The current rules of this run are as they were a week ago -- i.e., there is no rule regarding frame limiting AKA you can use an external frame limiter at the moment.)
Back to the official/unofficial argument. I think it's extremely stupid to disallow something that's capable with some piece of hardware and its "official" software. If there exists an "official" combination of the two which results in the capability to toggle frame limiting with a hotkey, it has to be allowed. I'm told "official" software for AMD GPUs includes the functionality to toggle a set frame limit with a hotkey. The question still remains, how can you determine if the frame limiting is being done with "official software"? You can't, unless we go to extreme verification lengths, which is ridiculous. With that being said, I think it's obvious even "unofficial" software has to be allowed as long as you're using it to perform the same functions that other, more "official", software provides.
This is the equivalent of a console being released which includes a button on the controller which toggles the frame limiter on and off. If a next-gen console included this functionality, how on earth could you justify banning it from being used?
The argument that limiting frames with official GPU software should be allowed, while unofficial software shouldn't be, is completely silly because how is the person verifying the run going to know which software is being used? A handful of people have made the argument that using software to set your FPS at a constant limit should be allowed, but only if done before the run begins and never altered throughout the duration of the run. I agree that this should be allowed as well.
There are around 50 unavoidable call/text waiting periods and two waiting periods similar to what goes on in It's Your Call (It's Your Call, Easy Fare (might affect the time it takes for the police stars to turn to grey). I don't believe the waiting periods where you wait for a person/car to move from point to point can possibly be effected by the clock, such as Jamaican Heat, Escuela of the Streets, Actions Speak Louder than Words, etc. I tested the waiting period during Luck of the Irish and the timing was identical (25 vs ~150).
Between all of the call waits and text waits, the average wait is ~17.5 in-game minutes. FPS DURING WAIT PERIODS - TOTAL REAL MINUTES WAITED 15 - 30.13 minutes 20 - 29.9 minutes 25 - 29.17 minutes 30 - 29.65 minutes 35 - 29.9 minutes 40 - 29.9 minutes 45 - 29.9 minutes 60 - 30.13 minutes 80 - 30.37 minutes 100 - 30.63 minutes 120 - 30.86 minutes 144 - 31.59 minutes 160 - 31.84 minutes
FPS - ONE IN-GAME MINUTE IN REAL SECONDS
15 - 2.066
20 - 2.05
25 - 2.0
30 - 2.033
35 - 2.05
40 - 2.05
45 - 2.05
60 - 2.066
80 - 2.083
100 - 2.10
120 - 2.116
144 - 2.166
160 - 2.183
The waiting period during It's Your Call:
(first frame of fade in) - (first frame of Roman's call showing up)
(first frame after phone disappears from hanging up) - (loan shark car reaches the shadow edge)
30 FPS: 1:59.70 - 2:33.56 = 33.86 2:35.30 - 2:55.74 = 20.44 44-53 [in-game minutes]: 2:14.03 - 2:32.29 = 18.26
80 FPS: 1:59.99 - 2:34.53 = 34.54 2:36.02 - 2:56.80 = 20.78 44-53 [in-game minutes]: 2:12.54 - 2:31.29 = 18.75
FPS: (~90 FPS for 1/4 of the first wait, ~140 FPS for the rest) (~90 FPS for the entire second wait) 1:59.61 - 2:34.90 = 35.29 2:36.42 - 2:57.33 = 20.91 44-53 [in-game minutes]: 2:13.08 - 2:32.35 = 19.27
Two real seconds == one in-game minute (2 real minutes == 1 in-game hour) Testing shows higher FPS causes the in-game clock to run slower, see below:
(+/- .5 seconds due to rough testing/human error) 2:14 - 1 in game hour @ ~250 FPS without frame limiting 2:11 - 1 in game hour @ 170 FPS w bandicam limiting 2:06 - 1 in game hour @ 120 FPS w bandicam limiting 2:04 - 1 in game hour @ 60 FPS w vsync limiting 2:03 - 1 in game hour @ 60 w bandicam limiting 2:02 - 1 in game hour @ ~40 FPS without frame limiting 2:01 - 1 in game hour @ 30 FPS w bandicam limiting
Ilias talked about this before, though I don't think anyone ever timed it and/or mentioned times: If you take the heli from Paper Trail to Three Leaf Clover, you'll end up saving ~20 seconds by the time you reach the bank.
From Paper Trail's end marker to Three Leaf Clover's marker (no extra waiting): (w/ cab) : 34 seconds (w/ heli) : 56 seconds
From Three Leaf Clover's marker to the bank marker: (w/ an empty police patrol car waiting at the curb, an excellent drive as well): 1:41 (w/ heli) : 1:02
Reminder to delete all text messages because in my latest PB, I received Roman's text, following Hostile Negotiation, two times because I never looked at it and the next time I waited for a text, it came in again.
When it comes to the speedrunning leaderboard of a particular game, the main categories should reflect the most common end goals players have when playing the game. In the case of GTA, it's beat the game (aka complete the main storyline) and achieve in-game 100%.
Miscellaneous: (of items or people gathered or considered together) of various types or from different sources.
All Missions is, by definition, miscellaneous, but that doesn't mean it should be hidden away in the manner that miscellaneous categories are currently "hidden away". I'm not here to tell the people in charge of this website how they should run and design their site, but it would definitely be better if both the main and misc. categories were equally displayed. Currently, we don't even have the option to display Misc. categories by default. This capability is however available for the rules of a category.
I think something like this would work and look fine, probably even better than it does now:
Misc.: | Category | Category | Category | Category | Category |
The option to not display the Misc. by default should be given, but the GTA leaderboards should keep things consistent and require that Misc. categories be displayed by default (under this hypothetical change, of course).
I really don't want to see it go. It's a major part of GTA V speedrunning history and therefore shouldn't be deleted. I regret deleting Roman's Sorrow from the IV leaderboard. If the times are still stored in the database, I'd like to see it added back under Misc. as long as it wouldn't cause non-opinion related issues. I think the same should be done with all other equivalent categories that were deleted. Deleting history and changing extremely established names does absolutely no good. It's funny to me that these changes come when the game is nearly dead. What good does this do? GTA V hit it's peak and is quickly coming to a close, so now it's time to wipe part of its history? It's quite ridiculous.
I agree, for consistency's sake. (III and VC)
Where do you draw the line for what is and isn't "tool assisted"? If I use a controller and need software for it to work with the game, is this not "tool assisted"? Any hardware/software relation for that matter. If I get a new mouse because I couldn't perform as well with my old one, and this mouse's software maybe even provides me with certain capabilities which weren't possible with my old mouse, am I not using software to benefit me in the game? Is the frame limiter not affecting my GPU to benefit me in the game? I don't technically need to use a controller to do anything, but I feel it makes certain things easier to do, and clearly no one has ever had an issue with this, nor has anyone ever brought forth any issue with any other example I've given. If you don't agree, then please, provide a rational argument. This discussion should be about more than this specific moment in the run, focusing more on where this imaginary line is drawn and why.
