To wrap up this thread and close any disagreements made, whatever you wish to classify wall jumps and clips as, does not change the fact that I am requesting a category that excludes them. If the moderators choose not to add the category based on a change of only minimal differences, that is their discretion as are with any other category suggestions and requests. I am entitled to have my own opinion, so I do not appreciate any insults being made towards me. Thank you Cujo and Kirua for your time and consideration.

What you want to officially classify wall clipping as is up to you, but it still remains an exploited game failsafe mechanic intended to stop you from getting stuck, not to skip levels. Hence the term exploit as it is being exploited. No need to continue arguing this point. Its an allowable exploit. The reason its in my thread is due to the fact that I was requesting a category where such glitches and exploits as wall clipping and wall jumping as well as the wrong way warp were all excluded. Not from the current categories, but a new one. Yes, my run was very sloppy, thank you for now trying to insult me for having an opinion Aftermathar. The point of this thread is that whatever time it ended at, its at a time disadvantage to some (obviously not all) of the other shorter times, because I lose time by not clipping through walls. Maybe instead of current 42nd place, it may have been 37th for instance. Even if the difference is small, the fact that there is a difference at all is the point here. I don't claim to be faster than Kirua, he is an extremely talented speedrunner and his times will most likely always be faster than my own. I have never claimed that I'm faster than anyone here. I'm saying that the current No Wrong Way doesn't accurately measure the time of my runs. I'm in a category that doesn't fit. I have no doubt that if the category were made, Kirua or mikeflowerpower would most likely hold the record there as well. I said before, I may not even make the top 10, but at least the rankings would be more comparable.

Again, the time listed is an estimation, not an actual measurement. Measure the exact time if you like, the exact amount of time saved is not the issue. Yes, I listed above already 1&2 are used together, 4 on its own and that 3 is rarely used. The exact time isn't the problem, the problem is that there is a difference in time existing making it difficult to accurately compare run times in the current format. The extra time advantage in itself is the problem here. No exploit strategy does not currently match any current categories. That is the issue.

The wall clip is exploiting a failsafe. It is an exploit nonetheless. Is it allowed? Yes. I have never said it wasn't. Glitches and exploits will always be a part of speedruning, of coarse! I've stated it already I've not denied this, in fact I've stated every current category caters to them. I have said this many times already. Wall clipping is an exploit, deal with it. It means nothing other than terminology, as they are allowed in every current category. Maybe this category idea will be revisited as a possibility when someone ruins the leaderboards of Any% and No Wrong Way when they glitch the game out and beat it in World 1-1. :P

I'll start off by saying congrats on your record iateyoursenpai.

Most posts I've been responding to are arguing the classification of wall glitching. I have said multiple times they are allowed and that's how it is. They are an exploit on failsafe game mechanics. Classify them any way you like, they are an exploit. Exploits are currently allowed in all categories, don't worry so much about the terminology. Nobody is trying to remove them from the current categories, so you're free to keep using them. The 20-30 seconds gain is an estimation based on the amount of area skipped. http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s631/megamr/bowsers%20castle2_zpsptwewblr.png~original There are 4 skips, most often 1&2 together, 4 on its own, and 3 is rarely used. The exact duration of time saved by using section skips is not the issue here, although you are more than welcome to measure the exact times for your own research. The issue is that these skips save you time at all. Which means my running strategies (no glitching or exploits) puts me at a loss of time disadvantage before the run is even started. Just like my previous no wrong way strats in an Any% category example. You may argue minimal differences in time gained through wall clipping, but the issue is not the exact amount of time gained, but the issue is that when comparing the two methods, a time advantage is gained at all. The best example is Any% vs No Wrong Way is a 7m40s time gap between using and not using certain glitches. The exact amount of time isn't the issue, the issue is that currently, exploit runs give the players an advantage over no exploit runs. My argument has been that players like myself that don't enjoy using exploits, have no categories to accommodate them. Which is why I have been requesting a new category for such (See the thread title). Without having a category the better matches this playstyle, it makes it very difficult to accurately measure my runs times to other speedrunners times due to the time gap between using and not using exploits. Kirua, your 1st place in No Wrong Way, would not even make it onto the leaderboard of the Any% category, no matter how perfect you could run your levels and trim time elsewhere, which is exactly my main argument. Every current category caters only to those who use exploits and glitching. I am really hoping one day to have at least one category where the game is run exploit free, just like No Wrong Way was added to produce more satisfying playthroughs that were more enjoyable to watch.

Lawso42, if you currently use software outside of the rule specs of the category, you are welcome to make a category request as well. This thread is a request afterall, not a demand. Yes I am making a request, because my runs do not match the current categories available and I do enjoy participating and learning from this community. I could not learn so much about speedrunning on my own after all.

Just because its been used in all current categories where is is clearly allowed, does not mean Its not exploiting a game mechanic. Its a game mechanic to prevent Mario from getting stuck, but it is being exploited to skip sections of levels. An exploit is an exploit. It is allowed, I'm not saying its not. I was asking for new category where it could be excluded.

Thanks for sharing Cujo, although a smaller community and has a much lower amount of submissions, at least its in line with my playstyle, and hopefully an additional category will catch on to this one too eventually.

"We will not add a new category just because you wanna use your own rules." Actually that's exactly why there isn't just one category. Every category has its own set of rules. "You overestimate how much time is saved by the zips." Anywhere from 20-30 seconds can be cut from your run by using these wall gitches, where as cutting time from my personal best, I could maybe save about 15-20 seconds maximum if I had an absolute perfect run and some rng luck. Still wouldn't quite make it, because not using exploits puts me at a disadvantage for this category. So no, with my current no exploits runs, I can not be competitive even with a perfect run, unless I use exploits. Its essentially like doing a no wrong way strategy in an Any% category. So yes, I would like a new category that accomidates my playstyle, hence my new category request. I probably still wont get 1st place or even the top 10, as there are many talented speedrunners, however at least I'll have a better playing field. Add it or don't, at least its created a discussion within the community.

Wall glitching is an exploit. The mechanic used is a featured nintendo put in to prevent mario from getting stuck and making the game unplayable. It however is not intended to allow players to skip parts of, or in some cases in 100%, ENTIRE LEVELS. The fact that these are allowed to be implemented are not in debate here, they ARE allowed and will ALWAYS be allowed, nobody is trying to change this. No exploits/glitching changes the entire way the runs will be played, because you are no longer able to skip considerably large sections of levels through your playthrough. I will say it again! Any% and 100% will always have exploits, because the definition of those categories entails to finish the game in the fastest way possible, using any methods available to you. So Yup! Use those exploits, I'm not telling you to stop, I actually encourage you to keep using them in those categories, because that's how they are built to be speedrun. But guess what? They are still exploits whether you care to admit that or not. I am not attacking the credibility of your runs, as I said, those categories will remain the same and will always depend on players finding new routes to achieve faster times. Play how YOU want to play. Enter the categories YOU like to run, if they include exploits, use them! I'm not saying don't. What I am saying, is that I do not like using exploits in my runs, and wont. I am requesting a NEW category separate from the ones you are defending, in which I don't have to use or depend on exploits to make my time faster.

Exploits are always acceptable in the current categories, however those who do not wish to complete runs riddled with exploits, I am asking for a new category, not alter the current ones. In this category, no, none of that will be allowed. Those have studied for years can continue to do so. Those categories will never change or be erased. I'm only asking for one to be Added. Not altered.

There are no video game police patrolling houses, but there are administrators overviewing each record submission to deem their eligibility, which is essentially the "policing" you are referring to that doesn't exist. As for your defense of wall clipping/glitching, non of these stipulations impact any pre-existing categories, and in no way make those records ineligible for the category they were entered to. These rules I have laid out, whether you agree with them or not, are for a Separate category with the rule being, the complete removal of obvious exploits. Wall glitching as it stands allows you in four separate areas of bowser's castle where players have been clipping through allow you to skip large portions of the castle. These are not secret rooms, or areas that can be unlocked (ie: SMW's Bowser's back door) These are exploits, which are perfectly fine for Any% or 100% runs, but there are other players who are now forced to use these exploits in their runs to be competitive, because everyone else is using them, which is why we need Cheat Free categories for those who don't appreciate having to rely on cheating the system to set a record. Different categories for different play styles. I do not like exploits, and my runs wont include them, which is why in the current state, my times will never be in the top 10. Use them if you like, and you are welcome to as in the current categories, they are allowed, and you are not discouraged from doing so, which will not affect the current community, even after making this new category, this is expanding the current system, not changing it, as now there will be another branch of enjoyable to watch gameplay styles built solely on properly timed game mechanics rather than exploits.

To expand my point further I can definitely elaborate. A better definition of glitchless, or can otherwise be known as Cheat/Exploit Free: Any exploits, glitches such as- Improper directional use of a programmed transportation device (ie: Wrong way warp, and DKC2 Expired Time Barrel Glitch) Passing through or exploiting solid walls (Wall glitching (SMB3 & SM64), Wall Jumping or Area Skips, with exceptions to intended invisible walls ie: DKC and Super Metroid) Permanent Temporary Powerups, or Overleveling (ie: Secret of evermore overuse of status effect glitching) Obtaining additional items/ammunition by illegitimate means (ie: Pokemon's Missing No. Glitch, Legend of Zelda: OOT Bottle Glitching) Cartridge or system errors, sometimes occurring with equipment failure (ie: visual errors/ screen distortion) No cheat codes or cheat menus (through unlocks or pre-programmed special codes) No Game Genies, Gamesharks, or Code Alertering devices that can interfere with the game's original programming. Any other code breaking method to unfairly advance your progress in the game not as originally intended for progression by the original programming of the game. Any of these infractions whether intention or accidental, shall deem your run ineligible for this category.

These games are made with the intention of progressing normally, exploits are found after many playthroughs which can break the foundations of the original programming's intent and in my opinion, is why each game deserves a separate category for exploit free playthroughs.

Any% and 100% runs will always have glitched runs, based on the fact that there are no rules, just finish the game as fast as possible, those records will always stand, but when you look at the category (No Wrong Way), instead of making it 100% glitchless, it only excludes one glitch... just one. Glitchng through a wall is absolutely very sketchy. I feel the community needs additional categories, not erasing the old ones, but additional categories where cheating is prohibited.

Any% and 100% runs will always have glitched runs, based on the fact that there are no rules, just finish the game as fast as possible, those records will always stand, but when you look at the category (No Wrong Way), instead of making it 100% glitchless, it only excludes one glitch... just one. I feel the community needs additional categories where cheating is prohibited.

Ok, I've posted there too. Thanks.

I've seen a lot of SMB3 speedruns being run, where wall glitching and using the wrong way warp have been used to achieve records, however I don't like using glitches in my runs to make records, hence my current 3 way tie for 42nd place, so I am hoping to encourage the community to make two new categories for a number of games.

Any%(No Glitching) 100%(No Glitching) I believe these records will have more merit for worldwide recognition and make speedrunning more achievable by newer members of the community as well as encourage more gamers to take part in speedrunning in general.

I've seen a lot of SMB3 speedruns being run, where wall glitching and using the wrong way warp have been used to achieve records, however I don't like using glitches in my runs to make records, so I am hoping to encourage the community to make two new categories for a number of games. Any%(No Glitching) 100%(No Glitching) I believe these records will have more merit for worldwide recognition and make speedrunning more achievable by newer members of the community as well as encourage more gamers to take part in speedrunning in general.