I think there should be sub-categories for RNG or no RNG manipulation.

The main issue here is the fact that there is no way to tell if someone is using RNG manipulation (assuming they attempt to hide it, which is entirely doable), and even if you CAN tell, it cannot be 100% proven.

While this sucks, I still think the benefits vastly outweigh that one negative so far as making sub-categories goes.

Here's the thing. The way the leaderboards are NOW have the EXACT SAME ISSUE as they would with sub-categories.

The issue is that we cannot prove if someone used RNG manipulation or not. That issue exists right now, and has existed since RNG manipulation was discovered. So, we have lived for 3 years with this issue existing already on the leaderboards.

Therefore, since this issue exists with the current leaderboards, and HAS existed for 3 years now, either sub-categories should be made (which would be the same as keeping the leaderboards as they are now, but would look better and be easier to understand, but there are NO technical changes as far as rules are concerned), or RNG manipulation should not be mentioned at all on the leaderboards and all runs should be together (the RNG manip Yes/No flag would be removed in this case, no other change).

If we remove the RNG manipulation Yes/No flag from the leaderboards, this will obsolete all runs that do not use RNG manipulation (aka MOST of Forbidden Memories speedrunning, not just in the past but in the present and I'm sure future as not many people run RNG manip). People will still run without RNG manipulation, but now their times will be directly compared to runs with RNG manipulation with absolutely no indicator on the leaderboards which is which. Like I said, most people will still run it, but as far as having fair representation on the leaderboard for competitive purposes? Nope, not anymore. What most people will end up doing is (likely) just commenting whether or not they used RNG manipulation, forcing anyone who looks at the leaderboards to sift through runs until they find the non-RNG manipulation run they're looking for. Either that, or they would simply have to look through all of the videos themselves to find one that did not use RNG manipulation. And this WILL happen, because I promise you someone who has grinded no RNG manip for YEARS to get a sub 3 is not going to announce to everyone that they are in 10th place or whatever. Of course not. They, like 99% of everyone else who runs this game actively, are going to say "Well, I have the record in No RNG manip, but the leaderboards are weird and combine all runs, it says I'm in 10th place, but without rng manip it's 1st." By the way, this has basically been how things are for the past 3 years, except we can at least tell people they can filter runs based off of RNG manipulation or not (aka sub-categories with extra clicks).

Keeping things as they are now, again, in my opinion should not be an option, because the only issue with sub-categories exists (and has existed for 3 years) in the current leaderboards.

Therefore, the two options are to either implement sub-categories (which most runners have been doing verbally as it is, as most people say/think of them as two different runs, two different world records, etc), or don't mention RNG manip anywhere (remove the flags that exist now).

My vote is for sub-categories (aka technically what we have now but with less clicks).

By the way, sub-categories are not the same as two separate categories. I am sure most people know this but I wanted to mention it explicitly. I do not want 2 separate categories. I want sub categories (so there will be 2 tabs underneath Any%, one for RNG manip, one for no rng manip). Sub-categories were created exactly for purposes like this, where two different categories aren't necessarily warranted, but there is still a vast difference in the runs that needs to be separated.

I am also very strongly against the category being moved into Misc. The bottom line is that No RNG manipulation is the most popular category that beats the game from start to finish.

Personally, I feel that there are a few different qualities a run has that make it misc. One of those is not beating the game, obviously. Any run that does not beat the game should be misc. No rng manipulation beats the game.

I think that misc categories should be categories that have some kind of completely arbitrary restriction on it. Now, I know people who want it into the misc category are SCREAMING in their minds "Banning RNG manipulation IS arbitrarily restricting the run!!!"

I am inclined to disagree. To me, arbitrary restrictions are things like "you are not allowed to use this function of the game" or something along those lines. An arbitrary restriction makes it so usual gameplay is disrupted. RNG manipulation is requires a ton of legwork to get going, and I would definitely not consider it a normal function of the game. RNG manipulation is not something people use in playing the game, at all, unless they have done considerable research and legwork beforehand, including going into the game's code.

But in the end, what people consider arbitrary is up to them.

Outside of that argument, let me now make the most obvious:

It is the most popular category, and will likely continue to be the most popular category. Playing Forbidden Memories without RNG manipulation will (unfortunately) always be the most popular method of playing and speedrunning the game. RNG manipulation simply requires too much work to start doing speedruns of it. Now, that could obviously be debated. But no one can debate that it is the most popular category right now.

No RNG manip has been the most popular category and currently IS the most popular category. To put it into Misc right now would be incredibly, incredibly asinine and nonsensical. I do indeed understand the argument for it to be put into misc, and I feel like if the day comes where RNG manip is the most popular category, then the discussion could happen again. But to ban it now would be an incredibly bad move and would actively hurt the community as a whole.

So, my opinion stands firm that it should not be placed into the misc area.

I mean, I think all prior runs should absolutely be grandfathered. A lot of the things we are considering banning here are somewhat common things, so removing runs that do them would not be a good idea imo.

@tyler9698 This thread is literally just a discussion on Misc or no Misc. Check out the other stickied threads on the forums for the main discussion of whether separation should happen.

So, while the discussion continues of whether or not RNG manipulation and no RNG manipulation should be separated into subcategories or not, I feel like this is a very important sub-discussion that deserves its own thread.

If separation was to happen, should the no RNG manipulation / legacy% runs be categorized under Miscellaneous? Or should they stay on the front?

Discuss this issue within this thread. State clearly which of the options you are in favor of, and why you feel that way.

I meant that it would make things more difficult to do RNG manipulation without detection. Not necessarily difficult, but more difficult (than it is now). Of course there are ways to do it otherwise. But the only thing we can do is try to cut off as many options as possible to make things more difficult. I believe my suggestions do indeed make it more difficult.

Not sure what else could conceivably be done here without looking into people's minds.

1.) Ban console resets within speedruns. As soon as your timer starts, resetting the console is not allowed until the timer stops.

2.) Ban the use of 3D duels except on Nitemare (swag points at the end of runs cannot be taken away, and it does not change anything anyways)

3.) Banning random sorts is too drastic, as accidents can absolutely happen. I think banning any more than 1 or 2 random sorts before any given duel is better. That way, if an accident happens, you do not lose your run. Or say something like "Any more than 1 random sort is not allowed before a duel. If you DO perform more than 1 random sort before the duel, you MUST lose the duel or your run is invalidated." This way, accidents are prevented, BUT if someone REALLY fucks up on accident, they can still save their run (albeit losing time).

I think that, if these three rules are implemented, it will make it MUCH more difficult to perform RNG manipulation. One thing to keep in mind is that there is simply no way to define it so that it encompasses 100% of all RNG manipulation. The only thing we can do is make it really, really fucking hard for potential cheaters to cheat without us noticing.

I was also thinking of creating a rule that bans idling during runs at the menus for a certain amount of times, but I really do not think that rule is plausible. But maybe it is. Maybe something like banning sitting at any menu for longer than 10-15 seconds? This way, those who want to go AFK during races or something can still do so, but they have to sit AFK INSIDE of a duel (seed does not advance with time during duels, so sitting for any amount of time staring at your opening hand would not help RNG manipping) rather than at menus. But again, I am not sure whether this would be good to implement, so discuss.

Implementing these three things would indeed make it very difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. And that is all we can really hope to accomplish, yeah?

I think moving it to misc would probably be the best course of action, in the blue moon that someone decides they wanna do a run of something containing it. But I also would not mind full on deletion. But then again, i do not do those kinds of runs. So, just for Grig, Misc is my vote.

I think that there should be sub categories. What the names and rules are can be determined later, but I absolutely believe that the no RNG manipulation runs that are currently done in races (and in regular runs, like a3's 3:12) and RNG manipulation runs (such as my 1:19) should be separate from each other via subcategories.

So, Any% No Card Duplication would have two sub categories of RNG manip and no RNG manip. Again, the exact naming methods can be determined later. But I think this is the base change that should be agreed upon.

The runs are, plain and simple, too different to only be separated by a flag.

The way it stands now, mostly everyone (if not literally everyone, including runners and viewers) considers there to be two world records within a single category, one by A3 and one by me.

So most people are already thinking of the two runs as separate categories. Why not make the leaderboards match what most people think? The only difference between the flags we have now and subcategories is that flags are much less user friendly.

I think the change would absolutely be what is best for the community and for Forbidden Memories as a game. It would clear up confusion and help encourage competition. And I wouldn't have to explain the same thing a million times per stream, so that'd be cool too.

"Well, yes I have the record, but using RNG manipulation. There's a different kind of run that doesn't use RNG manipulation and the record in that is a 3:19."

"Why are they all together though?"

"Well, they have little flags/ run variables that distinguish them. You can filter the runs with that."

"Oh... okay then."

Thats the conversation I have with dozens of people over and over again.

Now, is it making their heads explode because they just can't understand?? No. But my point is that there's no reason to NOT make things easier for everyone.

People already think of them as separate, so make them seperate.

I want to also point out that this was my original position when RNG manipulation was first found. However, I agreed to a compromise one year ago. That compromise is what you see today with flags.

However, my position has changed to a hard stance for separation. I have run RNG manipulation for more than a year following the previous discussion. Because of that, I 100% KNOW what people are thinking. I've dealt with it every stream for over a year now. I know what public opinion is. And that opinion is that they're separate runs with separate records and separate competition.

But what about cheating? With a subcategory, people can lie. RNG manipulation can be done WITH intent and without anyone being able to tell. I am agreeing with that.

Does that suck? Sure does. But it's not a reason to not separate them.

As it stands now, that same issue already exists with the flags.

If someone used rng manipulation in a run today but made it so no one could tell, they could submit it and say they didn't use it. And then everyone would consider them the record holder (or second place, or third, and so on) of no RNG manipulation.

If someone used rng manipulation in a run after this change is made and no one could tell, what would happen that's different? Nothing. Everyone would think that person is now in first place (or whatever place) of no RNG manipulation.

I heard someone say the flags aren't "official" at some point, so it isn't a big deal. Well, to the hundreds of people who care a lot about no RNG manipulation, I think they'd disagree. Those flags are the only things giving them separation.

Now, yes, with no flags, they could still do the speedruns. No one is stopping them. And no one is stopping them from making their own little Google Docs to keep track of it.

But why???? Why are we going through all of these hoops?

If mostly everyone already considers the runs to be completely different, then not having leaderboards to match is inconvenient for no reason at all. Cheating is just as much of a concern today as it will be after this change. The ONLY difference is that it will take a few less clicks to see the leaderboards as they should be.

It takes two clicks today to see leaderboards that only contain no RNG manipulation runs. Let's make it one click. I absolutely believe this is the most common sense solution that will 100% benefit the most people, while harming no one at all. This will legitimately only make things better.

I hope enough people agree so that this change can finally happen. Thanks.

EDIT: Just wanna reply to something I am seeing frequently.

To those who are saying a split can happen as long as a proper ruleset is put into place for defining RNG/No RNG manipulation: I agree. But let's talk about that for a minute.

As of right now, what is the current definition for the RNG manipulation flag?

I am not sure one exists.

So, we can assume that the flag that currently exists runs on the honor system, right? Yes, it does.

Now, earlier in my post, I established the fact that the flags carry the EXACT same weight as subcategories would.

What are the purpose of categories? To split up different kinds of speedruns and create a leaderboard that allows comparison between different runners for that exact type/flavor of speedrun. They exist so that people can look at a collection of speedruns that are comparable: apples to apples.

My point is that, as of right now, that is the exact purpose of the flags. We have the flags on the leaderboards because MANY people want to know who is completing the game without using RNG manipulation and how quickly they are doing it. In order to see this leaderboard that contains exclusively no RNG manipulation runs, a user must click their mouse button 2 times. This filters the leaderboard based on the flag and creates a page that shows ONLY no RNG manipulation runs.

When that filtering occurs, the resulting page is EXACTLY what the subcategory would look like. Literally EXACTLY the same.

So, most people are already using the flag as a way to create a different leaderboard for a different kind of run. People are using the flag to create a different category on the leaderboards.

Therefore, that flag holds a lot of weight right now. That flag is the only thing separating the speedruns currently. But yet, we are okay with the honor system securing it?

My point is that if you are currently okay with the honor system on the flags, you should be okay with the honor system on the different subcategories.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try everything in our power to create a well thought out ruleset that would define cheating. We absolutely should try everything in our power to stop cheating. But to claim that the separation can ONLY happen if this is done is silly.

The bottom line is that no matter how clear you make the rules, or how well defined the flags or the subcategory is, people can still cheat all the same. You're not actually preventing anyone from cheating by typing in rules to the LB page.

If you are looking for a way to create a block of text that completely disallows all intentional RNG manipulation, you are going to be disappointed because it does not exist. There is simply no way to stop it with text. You can have the absolute best rules typed out ever, that define what is and is not RNG manipulation perfectly well, but people can still do it.

The flags run on the honor system. The flags carry the same weight and seriousness that different categories would. Therefore, if need be, the subcategories can run on the honor system to.

"In this category, no intentional RNG manipulation may be performed. You may not knowingly wait or perform any actions in order for the seed number to increase to a favorable frame."

What I just wrote took about 30 seconds. It sucks MAJOR ass. I am promise you, better ways to define the category exist. But regardless of how well you define it, at the end of the day, the honor system is the only defense that exists. Just like with the flags. This honor system has been in place since the beginning of RNG manipulation becoming a thing in FM. And, no matter what happens, it will have to continue being a thing.

So please, continue discussing a good way to define the new subcategory. I think a good definition would help make things clear. But in the end, everyone understands what they should not do just by the category name. Whether or not they abide by it is, unfortunately, not able to be controlled.

Please continue discussing all of this. But my opinions stands firm.

For the bettering of the community and those within it, subcategories should exist.

A discussion is taking off in the Discord server of whether or not RNG manipulation and no RNG manipulation should be split into separate categories.

There seems to be advocacy for a few different options. Some include:

1.) Keeping it the way it is with flags 2.) Removing the flags entirely and leaving it combined totally 3.) Creating subcategories for the different versions of No Card Duplication

Discuss what you think should happen in this thread. It doesn't have to conform to the above options as those are just examples.

I agree with Icy. The way it is being handled now is extremely asinine and seems to be very poorly thought out.

"Intentionally Manipulated RNG" with an option for "Yes" or "No" sounds good.

That, or just "RNG Manipulation" with an option for "Yes" or "No".

Calling all AGDQ 2017 attendees!

I'd like to try to organize an FM race during AGDQ at some point. The category will be whatever the category is that doesn't use manipulation. The location will be the casual game room. The time has yet to be set.

Feel free to post on here if you plan on attending and what times would be good for you!

Also, as a side note: I'll likely do some locally recorded runs using RNG manipulation in the casual game room throughout the event as well. Feel free to stop by if you want to race, watch, or learn!

After keeping up with this thread since its conception, I'm extremely disheartened to see how the discussion is progressing. I want to remind everyone that if you are not speedrunning for fun (or for a reason that in the end leads to fun), then I'm not sure you really have a place here.

Secondly, I absolutely agree a decision needs to be made rather soon. It's clear that no one is budging on their opinions. At this point I feel every post should be gone through and counted as a vote towards one or more of the options presented. The longer this thread continues, the more the discussion degrades into outright asinine arguments and the worse the community is going to look as a whole.

Please keep in mind this post isn't meant to be for one side or the other. This post is simply meant to encourage everyone to remember that they are representing the community by posting here and to try and represent it in a good way.

My post is also meant to encourage some kind of decision to be made.

I want to also note that if the decision does go towards the side of separate leaderboards and RNG manipulation then has to be defined somehow in the rules of Any% Legacy, I ask that those who were on the losing side of the vote: Please do not try and cause further distress by circumventing that definition by intentionally submitting a manipulated run for the purpose of proving a point or for the purpose of getting back at the other side. I think it's safe to assume here that if separate leaderboards are created, defining RNG manipulation would be nearly impossible and we'd almost certainly have to keep things together solely off of the honor system. All I ask is that the fragile honor system that may be forced to exist not be intentionally abused to further prove a point. If you lose, please just leave it there.

Finally, if a leaderboard split is NOT done, and we instead include a run variable for whether or not manipulation was used: I ask everyone who was pushing for a split leaderboad to please accept the decision with grace, and do not continue to complain, make jokes, or anything of the sort. Do not denounce all of the FM community because of it. Do not stop doing what you enjoy doing simply because of minor changes. Do not further hurt the reputation of the community by publicly outcrying for weeks to come. Accept the decision.

The overall point of the post is this: Whatever happens in the end (and please make the end happen soon), please accept the decision made with grace, like an adult. Show the world that this community is able to work through its issues by having a civil discussion, implementing the majority idea, and continuing on as usual.

And, all in all: Please remember this is about fun. All this discussion is about is this leaderboard. It isn't about how you're allowed to play the game. It isn't about how you're allowed to race the game. If things don't turn out in your favor, don't let it stop you from having fun, regardless of your position on this. Thank you to anyone who actually read this entire thing.

I hope we can all begin to understand that we're all playing for the same team. We're all on the same side. We're all a part of this community.

So you want to switch a slower category into the category for the fastest possible run? Seems good.

I am now putting forth support to having a run variable for "Manip" Yes/No.

Cyber's idea does indeed better benefit those who are supporting Any% Legacy more so than those who do not. While I am one of those supporters, I understand a middle ground needs to be found in which both ends see as compromise, and I feel having a run variable is as close to a middle ground that exists.

Of course, I would love implementing Cyber's idea because it is better for my own personal wants, but for the sake of both sides I am supporting the run variable instead.

Thanks for your input.

I think the case is closed. If it's spoken of in the guide, it's intended use.

I found what Elven is referring to. Here is the portion of text you're referring to:

On the bottom of that page, the block of text next to the picture of the Pocketstation ROUGHLY translates to (or at least contains):

"Such as the technique of the remote control...function be switched to the frequency of each manufacturers. If you switch this, many different card from the same remote control"

Granted this is a VERY rough translation. But it is 100% confirmed that it talks about using different frequencies with remotes from different manufacturers and obtaining multiple cards from one remote.

Hi all,

Just noticed that it isn't a listed rule that all runs require video proof. I feel this should be added ASAP.

For 100%, this clearly is not feasible, but it should be added that all segments of 100% must be streamed live.

So, for all categories but 100%, add:

"All runs must have video proof in order to be validated."

For 100%, add:

"All segments of the run must be livestreamed."

If you agree with these rule additions, like this post. If you disagree (which I have no idea why you would), feel free to discuss here.