Glitchless ruleset discussion
8 years ago

This thread should serve as a discussion platform regarding the ruleset for all glitchless categories. The best thing to have would be a list with either definitions or an enumeration of what is considered a glitch. Taeruhs has been working on glitchless project himself for which he used a list he created, and which we can use to start off this topic:

Banned would be:

. Bug jump (BJ & IBJ) . Fall damage cancel . Airwalk; . Back handspring or left roll to reach "unreachable" high areas . FPS dependant tricks that look like glitches (e.g. using irregular slopes to make Lara float) . Delayed Swandive . Any trick which involves making Lara step on something that's obviously not a solid surface (e.g. using the fence shortcut in Croft Manor's maze)

It's save to say that the first three items on that list are glitches and have a definitive place on the list. Discussion arises when it comes to the usage of irregular slopes (examples: 1, 2, 3 & 4 at 0:06 and 1:38) and delayed swandives. I also think that some points should be made clearer (e.g. "look like glitches", "obviously not a solid surface"). I would rather add something like the numerous (FPS dependent) door skips/clips as an item rather than giving a group of glitches some vague name.

Personally, I don't have what I would call a very deep understanding of the TRA mechanics themselves, so I don't really know what behavior is caused by which circumstances or moves, so if someone else wants to state their opinion or explanation on these tricks, that would be great.

Czech Republic

I'd add OoB to the list and maybe "weird" boosts like the one in apel's MC run, where he jumps towards collapsed bridge and it boosts him onto the platform.

I also think that any kind of list is not enough and every potentially looking trick/glitch should be discussed and judged by mods.


I've made six videos to better ilustrate two of the "shady" points of the list.

A - This is an example of glitch in which you use what I call "irregular slope" to make Lara float to the desired spot. B - I just made this one to show how much the irregular slope jumps look like glitches. C - This one shows the "stand on something that's not obviously a solid ground" thing. That is probably a bad description. Personally, I would NOT consider this a glitch because you can say that there is a reason for the collision here. It's the top of the "thing" which holds the keyhole. It makes "sense", even though Lara is seemingly walking on thin air. D - However, I think this case is different from the one above. Here, Lara is 100% standing onto nothing. There is no reason for collision. It's just a piece of invisible solid ground placed in a random spot. So this IS a glitch in my point of view. If you watch closely, you will notice that this shortcut has two "steps" or two "degrees". If we follow my line of thoughts, the first step would be a glitch, but the second one would not (because we can probably assume that there is a reason for collision there, the fence. E - The fifth video shows an FPS Dependant Trick that is obvioulsy a glitch (watch the framerate at the top left corner). F - And finally, the last one shows a shortcut that depends on specific framerate to work. This would NOT be a glitch, simply because it doesn't LOOK LIKE one.

The way I described the possible glitches probably needs some revision, but these videos should explain what I meant in those descriptions. A = Yes; B = Yes; C = No; D = Yes; E = No.

EDIT 1: Also, me and Cadarev have the same opinion about Delayed Swan Dive. If it was just a case of Lara going a little bit further than the edge, then there wouldn't be a problem. But since you can actually walk on air for some time, then "yes" for that one too.

EDIT 2 : And, whenever we are ready to create the full list, we can't forget to add OoB (as Ewil mentioned) and also moving through walls (sphynx skip in Sanctuary of the Scion) and getting items through objects (first artifact in St. Francis Folly / Pistols in Natla's Mines). That should be everything.

Edited by the author 7 years ago

IMO A / B / E / F are what I'd rule out.

I really don't think C/D should be ruled against in the glitch-less category, as the fact the developers put collision in that spot isn't entirely a glitch per-say, it's just shitty level design, it's not happening as a result of some fucked up code like lara being able to air-walk, or being able to roll up slopes, or delayed swan diving, it's simply them making bad levels.

Overall for a glitchless run, I'd say that anything that isn't intended with regards to programming or framerate shouldn't be allowed, where as bad level design is just bad level design, if this means that you can skip a section due to bad level design I'm all for it.

That being said, there could arise a situation in the game where you can get OOB without doing any glitches (The closest thing that springs to mind is in the folly at Poseidon's door where you can go OOB by jumping into a small broken ledge, it doesn't help the run but could it be argued that you're not using a glitch to get OOB? Or you are because you're jumping into a ledge to get pushed out, it's debatable). at which point this would have to be reconsidered.

Taeruhs likes this

I think banning OOB would be a good idea on the basis of Deadscale's last point alone. Maybe we should also consider banning clipping yourself into solid objects as a point (includes door skips and similar stuff), but I'm not sure if that's a valid glitch category. FPS dependant tricks should be banned as well, yes.

When it comes to "glitchy" actions themselves, I think the way the OoT Glitchless community tried to define their list of Dos and Don'ts is a good start. Basically, if the action you take itself does the intended thing, the result can be uninteneded and it's not a glitch. For example, you can skip large portions of dungeons and puzzles (which is not intended) by taking damage from an exploding bomb mid-air, which knocks you back (which is intended).

Following that logic, I'd come to the same verdict as Deadscale. Jumping is not meant to make you float like in A & B, but it is supposed to let you jump on top of a higher plane as it does in C & D. Just because the texture doesn't match the actual collision doesn't mean it's a glitch. It would also probably mean that skipping the door at the Sphinx would not be a glitch (if done without airwalking of course) as you're definitely not ouf of bounds there. I haven't done it without airwalking, so I'm not sure what is exactly required to do it, but if you're just jumping on top of the door and over it, I'm not sure if it should be banned. Maybe it would fall under the clipping inside solid objects category.

To summarize, things banned up until now: ¤ Out of bounds ¤ FPS dependant tricks ¤ Airwalking ¤ Bug Jump ¤ Fall Damage Canceling ¤ "Left Roll" ¤ Delayed Swandive ¤ Grappling hook assisted pick ups ¤ Jump floating

I'm sure I forgot some, so just chime in with whatever. Also, walking around cutscene triggers is explicitly NOT banned. :^)

Edited by the author 7 years ago
United Kingdom

"Left roll"?


This, the term is more commonly used in TRL runs iirc.

United Kingdom

Oh, ¤that¤. I'd consider that a glitch too

Georgia, USA

hi im new to the game but i made a lets play can i submit as speedrun thank you

Georgia, USA

Alright so bearing in mind that I'm now semi-seriously (still mostly a joke though) working on doing at least one single segment glitchless run I guess I'd like to open this discussion back up. I'm going to repost what Cadarev said above and break down my thoughts on it.

"Banned would be:

. Bug jump (BJ & IBJ) . Fall damage cancel . Airwalk; . Back handspring or left roll to reach "unreachable" high areas . FPS dependant tricks that look like glitches (e.g. using irregular slopes to make Lara float) . Delayed Swandive . Any trick which involves making Lara step on something that's obviously not a solid surface (e.g. using the fence shortcut in Croft Manor's maze) "

Bullets 1-3: No disagreement, obviously glitches.

Bullet 4, backwards handspring/left roll: No disagreement, though it's semi-arguable. Still you could only make a fairly weak case as to its legitimacy.

Bullet 5, irregular slopes: Disagree. I think the argument that it "looks weird" in unsatisfactory, also to my knowledge this isn't actually a FPS dependent trick, assuming we're talking about the same thing. I'm assuming this is in reference to the jump you can do at the start of the game to avoid climbing around on the wall, and a similar jump you can do when the bridge breaks in the wolf pit. Both on Mountain Caves level. Side note, you spelled "dependent" wrong, nerd.

Bullet 6, delayed swan dive: Undecided. It looks strange, but again that's not a good argument to make. You can do a similar dive by holding the walk button, or the sneak button. Doing this is less versatile because you're going faster and so the dive has different distances, but it's possible. This leads credibility to the idea that delayed swan dive may not actually be a glitch and is instead affected by player speed, which would mean that "delayed swan dive" is actually using the small amount of speed you give Lara by stepping forward for a very short amount of time. That said, if delayed swan dive is to be considered a glitch it isn't a big deal because it can be circumvented using the methods I stated above with little issues.

Bullet 7, stepping on solid surfaces: Disagree. This is poor level collision by the developers, but not a glitch. It looks weird and onlookers would think otherwise, but it's honestly just poor level design. Also if we don't consider this a glitch I can still go through the door on the Sphinx in Sanctuary of the Scion so that's very important because fuck that puzzle.

Edited by the author 7 years ago

After being mad at Feno for almost a year because he simply replied to the opening post and didn't read through the rest to realize that we've long discarded most of the statements originating in the first post, I would like to wrap this up in the near future. Looking back, we're actually not that far off from finalizing a ruleset.

My proposition, by the way, would be to give a generalized list of banned techniques/tricks/glitches in the rules, but also provide a forum thread where we can detail specific stuff that is banned or allowed, like standing on top of the lever in Vilcabamba being allowed or similar stuff.

Also, since the last post, Corner bug has been found, I'm not sure if it's technically a FPS dependent trick or only a side-effect of Vsync off's tendency to fuck up everything, so maybe it should be added just for clarity's sake. Or should we make glitchless runs use Vsync on only in general?

Anyways, let me summarize how far we got so far by listing all the stuff we agreed on and where there is still some discussion to be had:

Banned unanimously:

  • Out of bounds (note: Is there a handy definition of OoB?)
  • FPS dependent tricks
  • Airwalking
  • Bug Jump
  • Fall Damage Canceling
  • Left Roll
  • Grappling hook assisted pick ups
  • Jump floating (- Corner Bug)

To be discussed:

  • Delayed Swandive
  • Clipping through collision (is this a necessary point? Not all clips lead to out of bounds, but idk if there are any useful ones otherwise)
  • Should Vsync be set to on?

Please bring up other stuff that I forgot or that comes to your mind, so we can finish this up soon. There's really not that much left I think. And please read through the argument made so far, there really isn't much to read, there aren't many posts and they're not as long as they look.

Have we discussed backwards handspringing/rolling up slippery slopes? I don't know if this is used anywhere for great effect, I thought it was in Coliseum, but I couldn't find it right now.

From my end:

  • Delayed Swandive: Ban
  • Clipping through collision: Ban
  • Vsync on?: Undecided
Edited by the author 6 years ago
Czech Republic

-Delayed Swandive: Ban -Clipping through collision: Ban -Vsync: Since it's supposed to be glitchless ruleset, I don't see why this option would even matter, unless it gives you higher movement speed or something like that. -Backwards handspringing/rolling up slippery slopes: This is probably same as using swandive/sommersault for faster movement, or jumping in tomp 1/2. I don't see it as a glitch. -Grappling hook assisted pick ups: Not sure what this means :/


Vsync off gives you abrupt downwards boosts if you swandive on slopes for example. If you swandive down a slope, you gain additional distance, if you swandive up slopes, you get sent back down. It also can easily fuck up animations, such as make you spin around on the wrong axis when you're on a horizontal pole (i.e. spin through the pole and not around it). So enabling vsync would prevent a lot of glitchy behavior and glitches in general (Corner Bug is only possibly with Vsync off, as Lara grabs the ledge perpendicularly when vsync is on, so no Corner Bug possible this way).

Grappling hook assisted pick ups:

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Czech Republic

-Vsync: Does the movement speed change depending on how high your framerate is or is it constant? If it's constant for everyone, I would allow it. -Grappling hook assisted pick ups: Ban


So basically what is the "better than glitchless" category, you don't have the right to use any glitch/bug ? If it's that i like it.


Hi, as the rules state, BTG does not allow airwalk, bug jump and framerate limiting.

Georgia, USA

Ask yourself, if it were the case that no glitches are allowed, why would it be called "better than glitchless" and not glitchless? You know what "glitchless" means, right? It's not glitch-less, where you don't use as many glitches. Glitchless is entirely without glitches. BTG, on the other hand, is actually worth playing/watching and isn't the worst thing imaginable.

Also framerate limiting will be allowed once the kinks are all worked out

jawibae likes this

Nothing is clear in this leaderboard. I wonder why it needs 50 category bug jump, no bug jumps, no framerate blabla, segmented ect. Creating two categories bug allowed/totally glitchless will make more sense.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
French Southern Territories

I'ld argue that some glitchless categories contains glitches or controversial tricks that are half-considered as glitches, half as tricks. For example : Glitchless in Mirror's Edge 1, Glitchless in Portal 1 ... etc Sometimes Glitchless doesn't mean anything. Usually when you have more than 3 runners in a community, you can vote to decide which rules fit better your desires. I think "Better than Glitchless" is a stupid clickbait name. I'ld recommend something like Glitchless+ like in Another Perspective. Or more commonly rename the other glitchless in "No Major Glitches" or whatever pleases you the most.

RiiFT likes this
Georgia, USA

Better Than Glitchless is absolutely 100% a joke name. Saying "no major glitches" is inaccurate though as some of the glitches still skip huge chunks of the game. Glitchless+ doesnt quite fit either, as it's far, far from glitchless. We're excluding two main glitches, airwalk and bug jump, and replacing them with several glitches we don't normally perform.

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New Rules / New Windowed Mode

As of the posting of this message, these rules apply for every category:

  • Changing framerate using a third-party program (e.g. Dxtory, RivaTuner...) mid-run to perform specific tricks is banned. However, you are allowed to switch your refresh rate through the game's options during your runs.


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