Forums  /  Thief series  /  Thief: The Dark Project  /  Thief Run Legitimacy
  RiiFTRiiFT

Recently, sirbittle uploaded a run of "A Keeper's Training" while having the TFix mod applied. Does that mean that Tfix is allowed to be used in the making of runs for both Thief and Thief: Gold?

 
  JakePlisskenSDAJakePlisskenSDA

In Thief 2, we explicitly allow the New Dark engine and certain related patches as it is almost impossible to stream or even run the original patches on modern hardware. However as you have seen there are certain strategies that are impossible in the Old Dark engine that are possible with TFix and New Dark, specifically New_Mantle. But since the game is not especially competitive the issue has not been thoroughly discussed. It all depends on what kind of consensus the community arrives at. Personally I will only ever play this game in Old Dark, but I understand that not everyone has the game knowledge to make such an install run reliably.

 
  RiiFTRiiFT

I believe that the game should be run using the Old Dark Engine as it allows for skips that should not be possible such as out of map glitches on The Keeper's Training. If users cannot play the original game however, a new category should be allowed for such runs, or at least link to some patches that could make the game possible to use as close to it's original state as possible.

A guide from an advanced user can even be attached to the resources page to help people setup the game for modern hardware to make running the game the same for everyone. I am more than happy to create such a guide. I'm going to start another thread to nominate you as the Thief: Gold and Thief: The Dark Projects moderator, the games SR.com page is in such a horrible state. That is if you want to moderate it, since Thief 2 has a great SR.com page which I can only assume was created by you since the other mods are inactive.

 
  JakePlisskenSDAJakePlisskenSDA

I wouldn't be opposed to moderate TDP and TG as well. Socrates and Voetiem are active for verifications but don't currently run the game. Alderius has been a series mod since the pages were created but as far as I know the last time he touched this game was 2 years ago and he's never verified a run. No need to start a thread, I'll just shoot a message over to Socrates and he'll flip the switch.

As a note I do have a partially completed setup guide for Thief 2 which I quit working on because interest from new runners was low. In either case, Old Dark can't be streamed natively with OBS because it utilizes DirectX 7, with which OBS and its variants are incompatible. I am able to capture it using Dxtory (a paid program) but it will have some lag even on a very powerful PC.

 
  RiiFTRiiFT

Are their any other major differences in terms of actual gameplay besides the climbing system in the NewDark Engine compared to the old one? The only problem I can see with using the NewDark engine is what it does to "A Keeper's Training" map, creating a 15-20 second timesave. You can switch it to the original map provided by just dragging and replacing the "MISS01.OSM" and "miss1.miss" from a retail copy making the time save in question impossible.

 
  RiiFTRiiFT

Digging into the old speedruns I have found some pretty interesting glitches. There is no way I'm going back to the NewDark engine now. I can record the original CD version of Thief: Gold and The Dark Project if I use Fraps I lose a couple of frames if I record in full 1080p but 720p works flawlessly. Will be uploading some runs soon.

 
  Xmodule999Xmodule999

By clicking "Rules" is possible to see that:

"Timed with In Game Time, single segment ONLY. This means no quicksaves/loads allowed, no pauses, no tab outs.

Played on 'Normal' difficulty.

Must include some proof of In Game Time. RTA timer is appreciated but not required."

While speedrunning Cragscleft with 3 speedpotions this run is legit or not? I mean infinite money glitch.

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  AmorphousAmorphous

@Xmodule999

This isn't really the right thread for this question, but it is a good question regardless. We've discussed this in the discord before, and I believe that it was disallowed. Neither Psych0sis nor I can remember the precise reason for it being disallowed. I've started a new discussion about it in the Discord. I'll update whenever a decision is made about it.

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  Psych0sisPsych0sis

Though for you and your submissions, whatever the decision is won't matter anyway until you prove to us your runs are legit.

We have reached out to you to do so and still have yet to receive solid evidence in response. So until then, I'm just gonna use this topic to state publicly our stance for you.

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  SudsMcDuffSudsMcDuff

is there a way to view runs that are illegitimate?

 
  SudsMcDuffSudsMcDuff

imo the runs in question should be watchable, xmodule gets a bad rap but there is actually fuck all evidence.

 
  Psych0sisPsych0sis

"there is actually fuck all evidence."

Ok, no. To say there is a lack of evidence would be far from the truth.

https://i.imgur.com/zoiqaRO.png

This alone is enough to cast doubt on the legitimacy of his runs. Who's to say @Xmodule999 is not still using said controller? He tends to take damage jumping up stairs almost every time, which is only possible with intense "spam" of jump, as only I have gotten it once and Amorphous only a couple of times. My money is that a controller or a script is causing this. Pile on the fact that he is /still/ the only person who can copter glide perfectly with every attempt, something only @Jayrude has managed to do on NEWDARK using MOUSEWHEEL binding, and even then still can't get the consistent height gains as xmodule... Well that's a big thinker, now isn't it?

There was also a load of, now deleted or privated, runs on his channel for Thief 2 showcasing him playing on "NewDark" but using the blackjack glitch. Now, I know the glitch has since been "rediscovered", only because this selfish man decided to keep the knowledge of the blackjack glitch to himself in an amazing feat of "only for me", but that doesn't matter. You can have my word his videos never showed him cycling the lockpicks. User @DanPC tried to point out that he just cycles very fast past them, but this is not the case as seen in the following video.

The excuse of differing cycling speeds would be a stretch at best. So then, this would lend credence to the idea that he recorded those runs using the thief 2 Demo Engine with imported map files. He loves the demo engine and thinks its the better way to run the game, as seen in this video.

Again, all of this should be suspicious. Tackle on the facts that he records runs of his that are using clearly inferior route knowledge/movement, uploads OTHER USERS RUNS FOR NO REASON (which is still hilarious, btw), and that he somehow manages to have absolutely awful audio in every video (shout out to the "yeah my escape suddenly had really bad audio but rest of the run was good lol" bit in his TDP full game "run"), and I'd say this is a pretty clear situation.

User and mod @JakePlisskenSDA has more stories of his wild antics (my personal favorite being him switching out the AI to being the thieve's guild mobs cause they have a lower alert radius) and he could clear this up better than I ever could. But I don't think he cares enough, cause he's done with this sillyness. So am I.

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  JayrudeJayrude

That's a lot of words monkaS

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  SudsMcDuffSudsMcDuff

nice that is exactly what i wanted to see. its hard to know what the truth is when its just blanket statements and memes etc so cheers.

 
  Xmodule999Xmodule999

3 speed potions for Cragscleft - is this allowed? Still I don't know. Still there are the same rules.

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  AmorphousAmorphous

I believe the way we're interpreting it is that you should not be able to use the infinite money glitch in ILs. Because it involves using saves from other levels.

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