4 WRs with no video proof.
6 years ago
Mexico

4 world records for this game have been sumbitted by the only moderator and aproved by himself with no video proof whatsoever. In the mushroom cup he admits that his IGT is 12 seconds slower than the WR but somehow he beat him anyway. How is this possible??

Massachusetts, USA

The runs you speak of are hardly "world records", they're just the best times that have been submitted to these leaderboards. There are no videos because they were submitted as benchmarks to have at least somewhat decent 1st place times here. I'm still not sure where that Mushroom Cup difference comes from, but if I had to guess I would say that PAL probably has slower inter-race screen transitions.

grnts likes this
Mexico

The current 2nd place of the mushroom cup played a perfect run, he es even using NBT (New boosting techniques) which is really really hard to do. In your runs you dont use NBT, so it is impossible for you to beat that time without using that strat.

And you are correct, PAL runs slower, so they should be in separate categories. I just dont think is fair at all to take away that WR for that guy when NTCS has an enormous advantage.

And if you just set those scores as benchmarks as you said, well, now there are various runs in every category and weather people have met or not your criteria for what a good record is, they should still hold those records, and the ones without proof should be removed. In the mushroom cup, the lady that currently holds 3rd place, should be 2nd. She shouldnt have to beat an imposible time set as an expectations of good gameplay to climb up the leaderboard.

Also I would like to have IL for this game, I dont see an issue at all with having our own IL leaderboard. I have read the answer you give to previous gamers requesting it and it is basically that there are other leaderboards much bigger and if we had our own, there would be only a coouple of runs. So what???? thats how everything begins, with a few runs, and this is a super classic game, Im sure in less than a year a whole IL leaderboard would be full. There are only 20 tracks. I dont see a problem at all with just adding them, it ll take such little ammount of time to just add the IL that people have requested since 2015. And why do you not add any new mods to the game? many people have requested it and you dont even respond to them.

Why do you rather have nothing at all than a few runs?, I really dont understand it. I already submitted my times in mariokartplayers.com but I would still like to compete here and submit my times and videos and see other people s videos, thats something speedrun.com has over the main leaderboard, the videos.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Massachusetts, USA

I'm well aware of how good KVD's run is (and what NBT is), but the run is still done in PAL, which is significantly slower than NTSC. There is also no need for separate categories when platform filters exist. If anything, 1P and 2P should be merged as a run variable.

I'm not sure what you're saying in your third paragraph. If you're implying that the times I have on the leaderboards are fake, then you're incorrect. They all represent real runs, not "impossible times set as an expectation of good gameplay".

There is no reason to create leaderboards for TTs here when established leaderboards already exist on the Players' Page.

As for moderation, there really isn't a need for more mods as SMK gets very low submission volume.

Mexico

If you are well aware of the difference in speeds between PAL and NTCS and still decide to have the regions obsolete each other, boy that's an arbitrary, unfair, ridiculous decision. I thought as a moderator you would know better.

You have 23 runs in defferent Mario Kart video games and ALL of your 1st places have no video. You dont have a single 1st place with a video proof, which is incredibly suspicious, but I guess when you are the only "moderator" for a game, you can do that.

And Im not saying that you personally cant achieve these times, I just think as a moderator you should set the example of the fairest way to submit a run. What if I just start running the game and I send a 1st place, what guarantees me that you arent just gonna submit your own run beating mine by 1 second with no proof?

Keep up the good work and inclusiveness. I'll just unfollow the game.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Gelderland, Netherlands

Lol you are ridiculously foolish if you believe Lafungo is faking his times or bending the rules to his favor. Stop being so stuck up about times not being proven and add to the community by making videos and getting better instead of bitching about something you don't know anything about

Mexico

you are right goomba I should just shut up and accept what the ruler decides. I never said he is faking his times, I said they need to be proven, specially coming from the sole ruler. I thought that was the essence of the site, to PROVE how good you are. Oh well, keep ruling this as you see fit. Cheers.

Canada

@Goomba Y'know who else was defended with the same "If you think he's faking it, if you question his performance, you're an idiot" rhetoric?

Todd Rogers and Billy Mitchell. Geez, I wonder what became of them lately... If anyone knows, feel free to let me know. ;)

In an era where integrity is being scrutinized more than ever, the dismissal of pleas for more rigorous verification methods, much like we see being done in this thread, speaks volumes about how integrity is valued on this specific leaderboard.

Yeah, yeah, "Why do you care? You don't run this game anyway!". As irrelevant as this argument is, I maintain that this should be a topic of interest for anyone who see themselves as a speedrunner. Especially in light of recent events within the speedrunning community.

But if I was to humor that irrelevant argument, I'd say that given how this LB is being managed, I wouldn't even try to run that game. Which is a shame since I enjoy a good SMK game once in a while.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Kramkraft and DanOcampo like this
Mexico

My claims are completely fair

  1. PAL and NTCS run differently and they should be in different categories (not just separated by a filter.)
  2. There should be no runs in the top 3 (or anywhere) without a video proof
  3. The community is asking for TT and they should be added as well as more moderators.

What is extremely funny to me is the fact that in this very trheat the moderator responds "I'm still not sure where that Mushroom Cup difference comes from, but if I had to guess I would say that PAL probably has slower inter-race screen transitions"

I dont have to guess, I know for a fact that PAL and NTCS run at different speeds and a moderator should know that better than anyone. Yet Goomba acuse ME of not knowing what im talking about and stop my bitching.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Gelderland, Netherlands

[quote]you are right goomba I should just shut up and accept what the ruler decides. I never said he is faking his times, I said they need to be proven, specially coming from the sole ruler. I thought that was the essence of the site, to PROVE how good you are. Oh well, keep ruling this as you see fit. Cheers.[/quote]

Video proof isn't mandatory on a lot of the leaderboards on speedrun.com. I'll refute this later in this post, but first let me respond to marth.sk.

[quote]Y'know who else was defended with the same "If you think he's faking it, if you question his performance, you're an idiot" rhetoric?

Todd Rogers and Billy Mitchell. Geez, I wonder what became of them lately... If anyone knows, feel free to let me know. ?[/quote]

Ah, the classic fallacy to compare something that isn't the same. Just because you watched some Apollo Legend videos that talk about cheaters who had a high position in the rankings doesn't mean that's the case for anything here.

[quote]In an era where integrity is being scrutinized more than ever, the dismissal of pleas for more rigorous verification methods, much like we see being done in this thread, speaks volumes about how integrity is valued on this specific leaderboard.[/quote]

Here we go again.

[quote]Yeah, yeah, "Why do you care? You don't run this game anyway!"[/quote] I told him to play the game instead of stirring up stuff that is completely wrong and off base.

[quote]I'd say that given how this LB is being managed, I wouldn't even try to run that game.[/quote] If you don't want to run the game just because of the leaderboards, then you don't care as much about the game. Nothing is holding you back from running it, just run and don't submit

[quote]3. The community is asking for TT and they should be added as well as more moderators.[/quote]

The "community" you're speaking off are the random 5 people that have stumbled upon this forum on speedrun.com and ask for time trials because they don't know or don't care about the already existing leaderboards that actually have the full community on there. It's the main hub where everyone is. What's the point in making another leaderboard where you constantly have to say "Oh I'm number 2 here but in reality it's rank #259"

I will prove this to you by actually putting in some effort. First of all since you seem so intrigued by Todd Rogers, as you probably know Todd has been called out many times, having numorous fake records and very little back up for his skill in a considerable amount of games. Lafungo has a YouTube channel full of videos. Most of them are Mario Kart: Super Circuit, a game which is a lot like SMK. However, I've listed all of his SMK videos that are on this channel. These videos range back from 2012 to now. Here's a pastebin with links https://pastebin.com/X9mP3ND3 and his YouTube https://www.youtube.com/user/Lafungo/videos

Besides that here are 2 tweets by KVD https://twitter.com/KarelvanD/status/962046780048207872 https://twitter.com/KarelvanD/status/962092943963238402

with Lafungo scoring some PRs at KVD's place.

Besides that he has been posting PRs over the years on the Player Page, playing at the SMK championships and working closely with the community. And yet you still compare him to Todd. You're saying that you require them to be proven. Let's start with a fun fact: KVD was the one who originally added SMK to speedrun.com, where he added NTSC + PAL combined and split 1P / 2P

Besides that, here's another fun quote [quote]I dont have to guess, I know for a fact that PAL and NTCS run at different speeds and a moderator should know that better than anyone. Yet Goomba acuse ME of not knowing what im talking about and stop my bitching.[/quote]

Ah, the fact that the games run at different speeds is correct. However, the in game timers run at the same speed in both PAL and RTA. So if you were to count the Real time from 1:10 IGT on Both PAL and NTSC, it's the same. There are a bunch of differences between PAL and NTSC, but those are irrelevant. KVD got a time that's 12 seconds faster IGT. So that would put his time faster than Lafungo. However, his RTA is still slower. Since RTA is the same on PAL and NTSC, this means he loses RTA time during the track transitions, like Lafungo mentioned.

[quote]I never said he is faking his times[/quote] [quote]You have 23 runs in defferent Mario Kart video games and ALL of your 1st places have no video. You dont have a single 1st place with a video proof, which is incredibly suspicious[/quote] Sure, you didn't directly call him out, but at least you questioned his legitimacy.

So the legitimacy of Lafungo should be fine then, right? We know his skill, we know his IGT is slower, and we know the reason why. So that's @marth.sk's part

[quote]What if I just start running the game and I send a 1st place, what guarantees me that you arent just gonna submit your own run beating mine by 1 second with no proof?[/quote] [quote]As you can see in the leaderboard, If you are the moderator you can submit even world records without video proof. Not sure if thats posiblle if you are only an average gamer.[/quote]

Chill out, your personal vendetta against Lafungo shouldn't affect your judgement

Right now I want to talk about PAL vs NTSC leaderboards and no video proof.

This is all up to the whole community to decide, primarily the active one and not the tide wave speedrun.com people. Lafungo won't make any sudden irrational changes just because a few people ask for it.

edit: formatting

KVD likes this
Mexico

A video proof is the most basic thing that a gamer should submit in order to have any credibility at all, specially if you are the only one approving them. I dont understand why so much resistance to something thats a no brainer. I know those times arent particularly hard to beat, so why doesnt Lafungo just get them again and record them? Is it too much to ask from a moderator when we are talking about the 1st places?

And Goomba again you have no idea what you are talking about. PAL and NTCS DO run at different speeds. Why do you think mariokartplayers.com has two different categories? And for example why is the world record in Mario Circuit 1 in PAL 57.90 and in NTCS 55.97 by the same guy UK Champion Sami Cetin? If you would do even 10 minutes of research on the matter, you would stop embarrasing yourself.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Canada

@Goomba

Really? Are we going to argue the same way people bicker at one another on youtube comments?

...sadly, I guess we will. Might as well.

[quote]Video proof isn't mandatory on a lot of the leaderboards on speedrun.com.[/quote]

Oh for sure, but again, this speaks volume on how integrity is valued on those boards. And that doesn't change even if your rebuttal is "Here we go again.".

[quote]Ah, the classic fallacy to compare something that isn't the same.[/quote]

Except it is pretty much the same, and I'll tell you why in a moment. You blindly defend someone who refuses to bring forth reasonably expected evidence and you systematically refute logical arguments by meming and calling "ZOMG FALLACIES, UR ARGUMENT IS INVALID!" without even taking a second to see if that is the case. Calling fallacies isn't an autowin button. And it certainly isn't in such a clear-cut case.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Lafungo cheated; what I'm saying is that a reasonable level of evidence is expected not only from those who claim to hold a WR, but especially if said WR claim comes from a moderator, let alone the sole moderator of the game. If you can't agree that this expectation is reasonable, then I might as well call you Rudy.

But hey, since you made the claim that the two situations are different, I'll let you explain how your defense for Lafungo is any different from the defense all those TG guys had for Todd until his dispute finally got handled properly, and how it is any different from the defense those same TG guys have for good ole Bill. I'll wait.

[quote]Just because you watched some Apollo Legend videos that talk about cheaters who had a high position in the rankings doesn't mean that's the case for anything here.[/quote]

Is AL really your only reference point in that whole SNAFU? Well, whatever the case, I'll say that you're right: it's not the fact that this dude made videos about those other two TG guys that makes this specific situation the same; it's the fact that Lafungo didn't provide reasonable evidence while in a position of power. Which is exactly the same situation as when Mr Human Element himself entered his own scores in the TG leaderboards, with "Referee" as the verification method. So you're absolutely right, AL's videos have nothing to do with this situation. Hell, I don't even know why you brought AL into this. Perhaps as an attempt to discredit my point? Be that as it may, being in a position of authority and entering your own scores without providing reasonable evidence has everything to do with my point. AL is irrelevant. Try to meme on that now.

[quote]I told him to play the game instead of stirring up stuff that is completely wrong and off base.[/quote]

You totally missed the point here, but I'll take the blame for that one. I basically pre-emptively responded to an entirely too predictable rebuttal, just to cover my bases. It was nothing you said.

[quote]If you don't want to run the game just because of the leaderboards, then you don't care as much about the game. Nothing is holding you back from running it, just run and don't submit[/quote]

One of the many points of running games is to compare yourself to other fellow runners, see how you can improve. A leaderboard is the tool of choice to achieve that, assuming it is ran in a proper and transparent manner. You saying that I should disregard the leaderboard and run it in order to "prove that I care about the game" is absurd. If anything, mismanaging the board is not only a slap in the face to other runners, but it is a much, much more blatant display of that same carelessness you accuse me of.

Now that my points are clearer, will you respond to them or will you keep the condescending facade and meme on? Oh, and don't forget to leave out as much context as possible... wait, why am I telling you this? This is your M.O., after all...

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Gelderland, Netherlands

[quote]A video proof is the most basic thing that a gamer should submit in order to have any credibility at all[/quote] Image proof is, but I see your point. I never said that I wouldn't want to see videos. I'm explaining how Lafungo's times are legit, but it seems like you've turned around [quote]I know those times arent particularly hard to beat[/quote] Compared to [quote]The current 2nd place of the mushroom cup played a perfect run, he es even using NBT (New boosting techniques) which is really really hard to do.[/quote] so I'll let that slide. Video proof is not a rule of the community. Personally I enjoy seeing submissions with video, but it's not a neccessity.

[quote]And Goomba again you have no idea what you are talking about. PAL and NTCS DO run at different speeds. Why do you think mariokartplayers.com has two different categories? And for example why is the world record in Mario Circuit 1 in PAL 57.90 and in NTCS 55.97 by the same guy UK Champion Sami Cetin? If you would do even 10 minutes of research on the matter, you would stop embarrasing yourself.[/quote]

Ah, but if you actually read my post you could clearly read me saying:

[quote]There are a bunch of differences between PAL and NTSC[/quote] Drifting angles, speed, etc. There are a lot of factors different. What I was saying is that the timers run at the same speed, thus you don't lose RTA time when playing PAL during a race, thus Lafungo was correct saying it's about the track transitions that are slower.

[quote]PAL and NTCS DO run at different speeds. Why do you think mariokartplayers.com has two different categories?[/quote] MKDD Has 50hz, 60hz, and Combined. 50hz actually has the timer run at a slower speed than 60hz, yet the Combined Ranking is the main ranking.

[quote]If you would do even 10 minutes of research on the matter, you would stop embarrasing yourself.[/quote] ok

[quote]Really? Are we going to argue the same way people bicker at one another on youtube comments?[/quote] I'm merely going statement by statement with a bunch of sarcastic remarks which seemed to be enjoyed by both of us. You're participating in this as well as I am, so I don't know what point you're trying to make.

[quote]And that doesn't change even if your rebuttal is "Here we go again.".[/quote] Here we go again was based on the accusation of moderators with submitted times without video are fake. No video proof brings in a LOT of players. It's how I got into the MKDD scene and how many others have. Like I said above, I'm not against video proof, at the very least for the top score on the site. But it should not be mandatory. Should a moderator be forced to submit video proof? In my opinion, no. In your opinion: yes. It differs and I can't change anything about that.

[quote]Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Lafungo cheated; what I'm saying is that a reasonable level of evidence is expected not only from those who claim to hold a WR, but especially if said WR claim comes from a moderator, let alone the sole moderator of the game. If you can't agree that this expectation is reasonable, then I might as well call you Rudy.[/quote] I think the important fact that you are forgetting is that there was evidence that these two from Twin Galaxies cheated. However this is not the case for Lafungo. Besides, like I explained in my previous post, there's a lot of evidence in favor of Lafungo's legitimacy. Besides that, Lafungo's times are not WR.

[quote]You saying that I should disregard the leaderboard and run it in order to "prove that I care about the game" is absurd. If anything, mismanaging the board is not only a slap in the face to other runners, but it is a much, much more blatant display of that same carelessness you accuse me of.[/quote]

However Lafungo is not mismanaging this leaderboard, it's an opinion that should be checked by the entire community, not just the few people active in this thread right now. Is Lafungo legit? Yes. Does he have to upload videos as a mod? No. Would I want to see videos in the future? Sure.

Besides, what are you trying to say with the ZOMG, ur argument is invalid, memes, snafu, condescending facade, meming on? Is that really my tone, or are you just implying your own ideas of me?

England

This is so funny to read. Lafungo is a well respected karter, he is high ranked and well proven on the time trial site, attends meets (including SMK world championships in 2012 and 2016). No very top player has ever submitted decent 1p GP times to this site (since we have our own 150cc site, where we play for individual track times), the times Lafungo submitted are not good (I suspect they were possibly one tries without decent items just submitted to set a easy benchmark). To say the 2nd place guy played a perfect run only shows how little the original poster knows about this game and the smk community.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Goomba likes this
Mexico

@DangerMoll just an imbecile that has no idea what he is saying, but still wants to express himself. And when you wrote "No very top player has ever submitted decent 1p GP times to this site", man you had me laughing out loud for a good 4 minutes. Just because you embarrased yourself so bad, I ll explain this to you.

The 2nd place in the Mushroom Cup which should be by far 1st, "KVD" is Karel Van Duijvenboden and he currently holds 14 World Records in NTCS and 15 in PAL, I could tell you exactly what those records are, in which tracks and the exact times in every one of them. He is the person with more WRs combined in the world in SMK, making him the best player in the world. In his run he is using NBT (New Boosting Techniques) just discovered a few years ago by Japanese players, and something really really hard to do, and KVD did it in all 5 tracks perfectly. And the only reason Lafungo´s run is able to beat it is because he has PAL and NTCS runs obsolete each other when they should be in different categories.

The other cups I dont care as much that Lafungo has no video of them because I know they arent very hard to beat, I have said that in previous comments on this very threat. Research before you kiss the moderator´s ass, you lap dog.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
England

^lol, that is why I put "submitted decent 1p GP times". The time Karel submitted was not a decent time for him, he could go so much faster.

NBT has been known in Europe/US since the early 2000's and in Japan since the 90's so is not a new technique. I actually play this game at a decent level in time trials so am very familiar with nbt (since I use it all the time) and have attended the last 7 super mario kart world championships so I do have some idea on what a good run here would be.

Also thanks for explaining to me who Karel is, I would never have known this (other than the fact I have met him many times and am a mod in his twitch channel), but then I'm just an imbecile that has no idea what I'm saying.

Anyway I'm not going to bother argueing with a clear troll who knows nothing about SMK or the SMK community any more.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
DanOcampo likes this
England

Also just to ilustrate a point I just beat this 'wr' with a 7'43 (video uploading to youtube atm so will be available soon).

Some notes form this run:

  1. I didn't use a single mushroom or feather, I beat this purely with driving. Since Mushrooms can be used to cut large parts of DP1 and feathers large parts of BC1, clearly if I played this for more than the short period I did this afternoon then much faster times would be possible.

  2. I had many driving mistakes including, hitting wall and stopping on GV1, hitting thwomps and stopping on BC1, not jumping the bumpers a lot on BC1, missing the zoomstart and stalling on MC2.

  3. I hadn't played GP at all since last summer (and then that was pal, last time I played ntsc GP was years ago) and was very rusty so my driving in general was not good.

I really hope this drills home the fact that what I said about no decent times having been set for this to be true. If someone of Karels ability was to seriously attempt this then they would destroy this time I just set. Lafungo Is higher ranked than me in time trials so to doubt he could get such a bad time hopefully would seem silly to you now.

FYI track times (In game) were: MC1 48"98 DP1 1'04"69 GV1 56"19 BC1 1'20"19 MC2 1'10"56

Edited by the author 6 years ago
England

Since Lafungo is away visiting KVD this weekend I don't know when this will be approved so here is the vid:

SMK 150cc Mushroom cup in 7'43 by an imbecile that has no idea what he is saying, but still wants to express himself.

SioN, JoeReinreb, and KVD like this
Utrecht, Netherlands

Oh dear. Some comedy gold in this topic. The phrase "a condescending façade" is absolutely something I will keep in my personal vocabulary from now on. Also, henceforth I shall refer to Lafugo as "The Todd Rogers of Mario Kart" and David Moll will be "Lafungos lap dog" and "just an imbecile that has no idea what he is saying, but still wants to express himself." :P

On a serious note, PAL and NTSC speedruns of this game are incomparable both in terms of in game time (IGT) and real time (RT). A good PAL RT time for all cups is around the 33 minutes barrier, on NTSC this is 31 minutes. I can imagine that putting them in the same ladder can be a tad misleading at first glance* and I am actually personally to blame for this way back when I helped set up this section on speedrun.com. The thing is there are filters in place that can create distinct ladders anyway, so it's not really a problem once you know how to apply them. If anything, 1p and 2p should also be one of these filters, rather than a separate category altogether.

*I think most of the misunderstanding in this topic originated from this and the fact that DanOcampo and marth.sk are clearly not part of the Mario Kart Time Trialing community. Moll, Lafungo and Goomba are correct when stating that 1p GP is not a competitive category at all when compared to other leaderboards, such as the ones we have for Time Trials and individual course GP records (www.smkgp150cc.com), or indeed even 2p GP speedruns. So yes, as far speedrunning goes the 2p GP150cc section is far more pushed (also note how that is the default main section here), as it's how players like MD_Neo, Takashi, ScouB and me speedrun this game; it removes obstacles, makes victory screens shorter and is the way we're used to playing SMK at the annual World Championships. So 1p speedruns are mostly overlooked (by top players at least) and therefore submitting a record there without video proof is not REALLY a big deal.

Let's consider for example that the 2p mushroom cup record is a full minute faster and the advantage of 2p is not THAT massive...). Of course when in time the 1p records become more pushed, video proof will become more and more important. It's good courtesy to provide videos for anything you submit as a speedrunner, but immediately accusing a trusted member of cheating in the absence of this goes a few steps too far. Especially if his times have so much room for improvement still.

To end on a positive note, congrats on the new 1p Mushroom Cup WR Moll! ;) Expect a retaliation from the Todd Rogers of SMK soon...

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Merl_ and JoeReinreb like this
England

The funny thing is that dan__h should actually have this 'wr' since his mushroom cup in the 1P all cups run he submitted is faster (but then my 'time' was done on the 2nd try after not having played GP in ages and not using items).

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