Forums  /  Meat Boy series  /  Super Meat Boy  /  Naija clips in 106%
  MatteMatte

Are intentional clips allowed?

 
  warm_hamwarm_ham

As long as you're not using lag, clips are fine.

 
  MatteMatte

After some testing I kinda wish they weren't.

 
  vorpalvorpal

if you know anything the rest of us don't, please share.

 
  MatteMatte

Just the abundance of possible clips, I would say there are over a minute worth of possibly ss doable clips. Most of them require very little skill and are effectively rng and the chance of getting them depends on the hardware you are using.

I can get clips in 3-13x and 5-9x consistently enough to consider using them, both save 15+s.

 
  LatedogLatedog

Me from Discord awhile ago: "Clipping in 106 is considered fine since you can't generally control when it happens. If it happens, you roll with it and continue on. However, I do not encourage others to attempt clips intentionally as a matter of good player principles." ... "it's both 'random' and less skillful than to do a level properly".

MijzicalMijzical likes this. 
  MatteMatte

I don't think it is a good idea to have something allowed but discouraged. What purpose does the discouragement serve? You are just handicapping yourself if you choose not to use clips.

 
  MijzicalMijzical

its only a handicap if others are using them

 
  LatedogLatedog

The context is what happens if you clip unintentionally and ends up working out in your favor. To clarify, actively trying to clip should not be practiced while an accidental clip can be forgiven. If you were to ban clips entirely, then any random clip would render the run invalid which would be asinine-- so I can't just say "Ban all runs that clip!!". Again, it's just a matter of trusting the player to be fair and not abuse the condition.

 
  MatteMatte

Then why not just allow them then, no need to overcomplicate things. If they are only discouraged someone will go for them and then everyone else would be at a disadvantage.

 
  StarlitSentryStarlitSentry

This is a REALLY OLD debate, might be worth having a poll with a LONG running time (1-2 months) to ensure a large answering sample and just accepting the answer as the go-by rule.

Personally I won't be using them regardless, as it is I even stop if I benefit from one and waste the time I've gained off it but I understand that that's completely over the top, not like you can just magically reclaim anytime lost.

 
  LatedogLatedog

It doesn't matter if the rule is overcomplicated or not. The whole point is to maintain the integrity of the game/category.

We allow timer freezing, and I believe that to be okay because it doesn't take away the fact that you still need to complete it properly at least once. We allow autojumping which sometimes allows for some cool strategies or makes a level easier, but doesn't completely trivialize things (e.g. failing the inputs).

If we're just going to clip every single level that it would benefit us on, then that takes away the purpose of the speedrun, that is, to demonstrate skill. Make clips legal? Allow for alt glitch to be used, too. They effectively accomplish the same thing which is to go through walls in order to create shortcuts that aren't there. Throw in Kid skip. We know we can complete the levels, so might as well cut out the middleman right? No, it's to maintain the integrity of the run.

And if what you say is true about some clips being easier because of a person's specific hardware, which I assume is referring to playing at less than a stable 60 frames, then that's all the more reason to not allow them. No "official" rule has ever been created because it hasn't been an issue until this very moment, but I have not and will not ever attempt to abuse clips.

LitchiLitchi likes this. 
  MatteMatte

The point of speedrunning is to go as fast as possible regardless of the difficulty of the route, not to have a route that is the most skill intensive. The rules are just there so we can do the tricks we enjoy doing and skip the ones we don't.

I would be all for allowing replay glitch if it weren't for the audio issues that follow from it. As for alt-glitch intentionally lagging the game isn't enjoyable for me and I am sure many would agree.

The problem with banning clips is that accidental clips will always exist and banning those is a bit harsh imo. Only banning some clips is not ideal either because it leaves room for interpretation. The rules should be unambiguous so the only option left is just to allow clips.

AvetixzAvetixz likes this. 
  LatedogLatedog

The rules on what is allowed during a run differs from game to game, it all depends on what that community agreed on. Major glitches are banned from 100% runs all the time. Why degrade the great speed game that meat boy is in order to arbitrarily cut the time down? You should be looking at it from both points of view. You, the player, and you and everyone else, as the viewers. Is it more exciting to watch a player jump straight to the finish? Or to skillfully traverse it? This is why the any% (glitched) category exists. It's unpopularity is also no coincidence.

Now can you explain to me why you chose not to use any clips in the segmented 106 project? I can save you time and tell you right off the bat that whatever the reason, it's irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that you decided to not use them, and this would create a double standard. Segmented runs and single segment runs of the same game share the same set of rules. If you then allow clips to be used at leisure, then you'd have to go back and redo all of the levels in the segmented 106 project to include clips purely out of principle!

And it's honestly not difficult to tell when somebody is trying to abuse clips and when they're not. Off the top of my head, the only levels I can think of where this would be of any concern is 4-12 and 4-12x. Almost every other level would require the player to go out of their way to attempt the clip in the best spot, which is all too obvious. I can't recall a single time where an accidental clip ended up beneficial. In fact, most of the time it results in time being lost (see: 5-17 on my NLL run; a 1.5s loss).

Let's assume a man (who is not under the influence) is at fault for an accidental collision with a pedestrian and the pedestrian is killed. Now on the other side we have a man who is convicted of premeditated murder. Both scenarios resulted in the same outcome, somebody was killed, so both parties should receive equal punishment, no? Of course not! It's the same idea here. It's not rocket science to figure out when a clip is being gone for.

If you're genuinely adamant about wanting to allow clips, then the only option would be to split 106% into 2 different categories. Historically, though, this has been challenged and denied.

One last note, you'll notice I specifically addressed it as "the speedrun" and not "speedrunning" in general. Ultimately, speedrunning's main purpose should be to invoke enjoyment or pleasure. As earlier mentioned, the rules vary on a case-by-case basis and this is absolutely no different. Omitting glitches from certain runs is standard practice. The inclusion of intentional clips, in my opinion, detracts from the run and adds nothing to it other than to artificially achieve a better time.

I'll leave this strawpoll here simply as a general consensus: http://strawpoll.me/7349269

MijzicalMijzical likes this. 
  MijzicalMijzical

I believe the core definition of speedrunning is to beat the category as fast as possible and not beat the game. I don't believe its to do the game as fast as possible regardless of difficulty as that would mean there was no real such thing as categories.

On a side note I think some people would find alt 106% enjoyable.

 
  MatteMatte

You act as if allowing clips somehow degrades the run, and ruins the category. it really doesn't, the difference in time in the end is quite small and besides clips are just as interesting to the viewer as something like brownie skip or 2-7x skip and we are not thinking about banning those. Especially considering most of the clips you would go for in ss are 100% consistent.

The segmented run needing to follow the same rules as the single segment category is one of the least convincing arguments. They don't need to have the same set of rules at all and even if we accepted the notion of banning intentional clips the rule set would still be different as accidental clips are not a thing in a segmented run.

I like it how you took convicting someone of a crime as an analogy how something is just obvious to see and tell. Telling if someone is going for a clip isn't as clear cut as you seem to believe. 4-12 and 4-12x are by no means the only levels that intentional clips that could be seen as an accident, 3-13x, 5-1warp, 5-1x and 3-18x come to mind.

I must say splitting the categories is one of the worst option we have. The number of people running this category is already fairly small and splitting it further for a the small difference in the rules is insane. Especially considering the difference in the time would should be less than the difference between the current world record holder and the 2nd place.

I am also curious how do you think clips are an "arbitrary" time gain while timer glitches, wrong warping and going out of bounds are not. Saying that you still complete a level at least once is just as arbitrary.

 
  LatedogLatedog

The question that needs to be answered is, why do you really want clips added? Should the speedrun use them simply because they would save time? If you're not using all possible timesaves then the category is not being played true? In the end, everything that's been decided is arbitrary. We use OoB, we don't use alt, there's already a discrepancy.

All of the other glitches that are allowed are there because the community agreed upon them already. I wasn't there for those and I can accept the ones that are used today. The difference is that this time I am here, and I will make the effort to defend what I believe in because otherwise nobody else would question it. I can't make you not use them if choose to, never forced that on anyone. However, I won't because I don't think it's fun in the same way we don't think alt is fun, something I think you can understand.

Whether a rule on this is ever passed, official or not, it'll be runner's choice.

 
  MatteMatte

I have already explained my reasoning why I think clips should be allowed but I'll explain it again. First of all I think all rules should be as unambiguous as possible with no room for interpretation. The rule of banning only intentional clips doesn't fit that criterion. Banning all clips is too harsh since sometimes accidental clips are unavoidable. The option we are left is allowing all clips and as I have no better arguments against it, I think it is the one we should use.

Of course we can't decide what people should run, they can run whatever they want. The question is what rules should the leaderboards use. The truth is that the popularity of a category greatly affects what people run. Say if timer glitch and wrong warping were banned in 106% I would definitely run with those restrictions.