Hey everyone, once again writing on behalf of the mod team. Similar to sentiments echoed in previous discussions, we always attempt to make changes to leaderboards to support community needs. Recently, in our discord, there has been conversation about the Definitive Edition of Grimm Eclipse (released for the switch), and how it falls in line with other versions of the game. Over conversation between runners, certain points have come up that needed addressing, especially whether or not the Definitive Edition belongs on the same leaderboard as the original game. Thus, we will have a special community vote on this issue, that will be quite important for the leaderboards going forward.
What this is not: This is not a discussion about hardware. While the switch has the worst hardware and it does affect performance, this is not a discussion on leaderboard separation due to hardware. It is truly impossible to moderate hardware and settings in Grimm Eclipse, because even the same computer could have different FPS in-game if you switch to using a monitor with different refresh rate. While in the ideal world there would be some type of distinction, it is unrealistic to separate things like control schemes and ways to hold controllers, which can affect APM as much as FPS in certain cases.
What this IS about: This is a discussion about software. The question is whether or not, the product titled “definitive edition”, is a separate game. The game is published by a different publisher (Farbridge), and developed by a different studio (aspyr). It adds content (in the form of cosmetics and gamemode - local multi), it features patch specific changes (major ursa in gauntlet, no longer available on other version of the game), and most importantly it changes the fundamental way of how the game is played, by changing the counter and interact actions to be one of the same.
Due to the length of this post, some arguments for both sides will be posted as a follow up comment on this forum (speedrun.com did not allow me to post everything in one post).
Due to the importance of this topic, the poll for this topic will be slightly more constructed than previous ones. While anonymity will remain in terms of votes when results are shared, we will ask that the actual vote is not submitted anonymously (you will see the form ask for your src name). Due to the serious implications of this decision for the leaderboards, the voting will be limited to runners (any individual who has submitted a speedrun to the main boards or category extensions is allowed to participate) so we will need to verify there is only one vote per runner.
Thank you for taking the time to review the post. We encourage further discussion in this forum. You can place your vote here: https://forms.gle/gJSuA1sez6CGmRKN6
The form will be open until 5/21/25 11:59PM PDT
As mentioned in the previous post, here are some arguments for both sides:
We can look at similar cases on the website and other communities. Mario Kart 8 vs Mario Kart 8 Deluxe (pre-dlc) separated primarily on the basis of mechanics, the entire Darkstalkers (Vampire) series on similar terms and so forth. List can go on, but to make it straightforward there is an argument to be made from a top-down perspective that Grimm Eclipse Definitive Edition is its own game.
We can also look at it from a run perspective. What does combat look like between the original Grimm Eclipse (2016) and Definitive Edition (2021)? One argument can claim it is quite different. An ability like heavy synergy functions completely differently. In the original game, it is a way to effectively stun enemies very often, by getting team attack prompts on them. In the Definitive Edition, it can actually be a hindrance, since instead of serving as free stun, team attacks make you unable to animation cancel without activating them. Even such a small difference contributes to how combat is approached, especially in something like Eclipse which isn’t often talked about. Further differences like this exist, due to the changes made by the developers. Basically, a PS4 run will be nearly identical to a PC run, running on the same fps, but a run on Definitive edition will look different, from the build to the execution (this also means that if Definitive Edition is ever released on another platform and functions on the same build, those other platforms would be grouped together with that LB and not the original).
The above are a collection of arguments in why a separation is justified. I would also like to present a baseline for an opposing view. The reason this hasn’t been really looked into before is due to a lack of interest on the community side, plus the potential of how many categories would be created (even though that last part gets recontextualized when considering a new LB). Furthermore, there is a topic of reaching a critical number of RWBY games (3 games qualifies a set of games for a speedrun.com series), opening up a can of worms for the potential of series moderation and placing the Grimm Eclipse family of games under potential difficulties much later on (such as series mods not selected by the GE community having influence over the games in some capacity down the line). While it is impossible to know how this will play out, it is important to make this fact known. Finally there is the uncertainty of the playerbase. While on one hand it could be argued such a separation would encourage and attract some casual players, there is the risk of spreading the existing playerbase even thinner than it currently is.
