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7 years ago
United States

Why is normal a category? Why are PC and Console separate?

Thanks

England

Console don't stand a chance against PC I suppose. And people will prob complain if normal isn't.

United States

so why should they be separated? Can I have a new category for my PC since it's not as fast as Draqu's and lags sometimes?

England

Eh I suppose I see where your coming from. Igt isn't effected by fps which means your correct with that. I think more controller vs keyboard and mouse but idk if that is enough to change. Suppose its up to the mods.

United Kingdom

Normal is kinda pointless, its barely different from Easy, if people want to do the easier one, make it easy difficulty, if they want the challenge run, do madhouse, i dont see a point having an inbetween; purely my opinion though some people may be all about that normal if they want easy route items with slightly more difficult enemies, for whatever reason.

As for console differences; once again I don't see the point; then again I haven't and have no way to test the question: is there any difference. For some games there used to be differences in cutscene skips, in game timers and whatnot, but is there even anything like that for RE7? Like I say I've not tested it but IGT is based off of frames passed as far as I'm aware, so regardless of your platform or lag the timers are accurate, and if it's a difference between KBM and controllers well, a lot of people use controllers for PC, and its entirely possible to use a mouse and keyboard on consoles from what I know.

Im not mod but if theres no difference I stand on removing normal and merging the categories!

I'm editting this after reading another thread and realising something; as much as you can use KBM/controller interchangable, KBM is most definitely faster; but how do you moderate and stop someone from using a keyboard/mouse on console and simply crushing the opposition?

Edited by the author 7 years ago
JTB and AndreaRovenski like this
United Kingdom

For difficulty, my opinion has always been:

Easiest and Hardest. One is for speed, the other is for challenge.

As for the subject of IGT, I don't believe it is based off of frames passed, as someone in the discord lowered their framerate apparently through means of force and it did not affect the timers flow. Though, some actual confirmation of this in the form of video evidence would be nice, I guess.

As for KB/M... KB/M is faster than controller, people need to learn to accept that in my opinion and either adapt or just accept they're going to be slower than the competition. Some leniency in the form of separation is nice, but when you're separating things based on a players own inadequacy is where the problem arises.

If KB/M is able to be used on console through normal means (as in, no unofficial alteration of a console), then that should be allowed, too. The issue comes in when people start buying 3rd-party adapters to do that stuff. In those situations it's a no in my opinion and only in those situations should it be moderated.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
United Kingdom

Agreed, easiest and hardest.

I know some games that are frame-based, but if your framerate drops the game accounts for counting it into the final time, with this though I don't know; my PC needs upgrading and so i play on low low settings but still lag sometimes, i hope i don't lose time because of that; if only there were a way to test it though.

Although harsh I agree; KBM is the way forward with games like this, merely because its faster with moving and aiming and saves time, if you cant update your methods then you'll fall behind in the runs. I used to use a keyboard on my PS3, and from what I can research online you can use USB or bluetooth keyboards and mice with PS4/XB1 with no adapters, just simple USB, if its all accurate then platforms are indifferent unless someone can show something else that changes platform wise.

People may say "well i have a controller and dont want to get a keyboard mouse" I say if you don't already have a keyboard and mouse in this day and age you're in the minority, and speedrunning is all learning if you're just reluctant to try something new! Man i sound like a complete asshole trying to justify this merge, its not even like I run console Im PC only; i just feel that we should all be competing with eachother when theres no game-based platform difference

Chicago, IL, USA

My opinion is that it doesn't have to be binary between speed and challenge. While I haven't tried running Normal, I think having the option of an in-between-er is more inclusive. It gives runners more options on what they can and cannot run. One might also make the argument that a NG Easy vs NG Normal run is substantially different. This is shaping up to be a popular speed game, so why not provide more options? On the other hand, there is something to be said of making the categories too cluttered; but I don't think it has gotten to that point yet.

I'm pretty new to running Resident Evil so I am not going to overstep and say what the mods should and should not do with the categories. I just wanted to express another perspective. :)

As for the Console vs PC thing, I don't have a strong opinion on it.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
United Kingdom

You raise a good point; having done easy, normal and madhouse myself I just feel normal is slightly irrelevant, items are the same as easy and the enemies are barely more difficult, it'd be a case of "maybe" changing route to grab a few more bullets, unlike madhouse that requires a completely different route; but it is nice for some to have that option.

Im more on the side of the platform merge as opposed to normal elimination

Spain

Normal is definitely trouble for the boards in the near future (people is going to just "peace out" of running Easy because it's becoming too optimized and clain "Normal" WRs). I'm getting rid of it because I see there are more people (and myself) in favor to have fastest and hardest only.

PC and console merge, again, not in favor of it. And please, if you want them merged, make a good point.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
XTerminator, Crazydogma722 and 2 others like this
United Kingdom

Console and PC most likely won't be merged. On PC you can strafe and alter frame-rate. These aren't possible on console and as DemonStrate showed us earlier; frame-rate can have a direct correlation to clipping/out of bounds in this game. Simply put, there may be tricks and glitches possible on PC through altering frame-rate that are impossible on console because we aren't capable of forcing 30.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
XTerminator likes this
United Kingdom

If that is the case and console simply can't be frame altered then OOB and some situations are definitely different. If that is the situation then keep them separate, like I said I didn't know if there was anything truly "different" for consoles, evidently there is so they should be counted as such.

United States

Console and PC are the same game, one is just worse. Why give handicapped players their own free "world record"? What's the value in that? Can I have a new category for PC with PS4 controller on 2 sensitivity? I can't compete with KB/M, so I should have my own WR, right?

Make it a variable, not a subcat IMO. That way all runs are in one board and CAN be filtered between the two if desired. It prevents splintering for all sides and retains the possibility of its original intention.

Keep in mind, not all runs are maxed out competitive. I can understand wanting separate categories if both are nearly 100% optimized and each record is just shaving frames or seconds off, but that's not the case. If I have a 2:34 on PS4 then I have a shitty time, right? Compare that to a 2:26 on PC. They're both bad runs without much optimization to them, and comparing them is completely acceptable. I want to know where I rank on a board with all the runs together, not where I rank on a board with JUST runs from my platform. If you merge, but keep a variable, both of these are possible to see. Optimized runs on console can be compared with ease, and the board would also have functionality for all players of all skill levels in more reasonable ways.

EDIT: one more thing, the way I see categorical differences are if both are equally valuable and unique to one another. Console vs PC are not either of those. They are the same, but one is just very slightly handicapped.

EDIT2: As far as if OOBs work or not, a glitchless category is possible on PC and console can be lumped into that as well. If there was a route difference in any%ing each version, it can be performed on both platforms.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
Kazezo likes this
Minnesota, USA

im in favor of PC and consoles being different category's

Florida, USA

I can confirm time isn't based off frames. I studied the thing enough while mining for memory values. The game uses queryperformancecounter (which is actually really shitty and can be an inconsistent way) to calculate the difference in previous time and current time. That also explains why I couldn't find a frame-based incremental counter like other RE games.

Honestly, I'd be more in favor of using real time because queryperformancecounter can be sketchy. But this causes problems for console users that can't split automatically so idk.

https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/1y7ao7/what_is_a_fallback_timer/?st=iykqxgpb&sh=60067d40

http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=106

Edited by the author 7 years ago
XTerminator and Liv like this
United Kingdom

If that was the case, a more accurate retime method could be used.

Timer programs like livesplit/wsplit etc aren't entirely accurate to begin with anyway, and you can see the slight inaccuracies when you run games that are quite lengthy in that they start to drift ahead/behind real-time.

United Kingdom

If my game lags, livepsplit doesn't account for that, whereas the in game time seems to have done. There is also human error of starting and stopping the timer; could account for even a couple of seconds with an outside timer, air enough not much but in the long run what if the runs are that close?

We can eradicate human error with autotimers, but like Liv said in long runs they can lag behind sometimes, ive had a timer occasionally even glitch and just delete 10 minutes for some reason.

As for consoles vs PC, there seems to be pros and cons for both sides, im torn on the matter since more evidence has come up

Florida, USA

"If my game lags, livepsplit doesn't account for that, whereas the in game time seems to have done. "

Except this doesn't make sense because the game time isn't based on frame rate. You could force the game to run at 1 FPS, struggle for 10 minutes to walk to the first gate and check your stats menu and it should show 10 minutes of play time.

I'm cool with IGT, it makes sense and all RE games go off it (off the top of my head), but I'm just saying now, I won't be surprised if issues crop up later where someone's IGT doesn't add up to their video footage time (either the timer is slower or faster). It's a shame they rely solely upon queryperformancecounter for the game time (for example, LiveSplit uses queryperformancecounter and at least two other ways to check time), but it is what it is. For now, I'm not going to even worry about it unless people start noticing large disparities.

I've also barely used real time in the past to notice LiveSplit "lag" or delete 10 minutes (seems like a major bug in my book and I hope it was reported) so I wouldn't know what to say about that, personally. As for what Liv said, I'd be more inclined to think it was the game time being off than a program like LiveSplit (especially if it's a long game like she said), but that's just guess work based off what I've seen studying game timers and the works. But that doesn't mean I'm right in the regard.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
United Kingdom

If this is the case then my times are already slow if and when it lags, but thats down to my own hardware, nothing else; end of the day its down to whatever the rules decide as to how we measure time, I personally never really use outside timers for most games, it puts me off, so I never use splits much either, with RE7 though I'll probably start, especially with that autosplitter