This really shouldn't be banned at all save and quit is a trick in many speed games, doesn't break the game it's just about beating the game as fast as possible, for example there is a save and quit in the middle of a banjo kazooie run to exit monster mansion faster. Doesn't break the game in anyway, many games have tricks similar to this, death warping in other games follow the same premise as save and quit just to get back to an area faster. It's pointless to ban something as little as hitting reset on your Wii or GameCube. That's my opinion probably doesn't matter much but hopefully just brings some other perspective of some sort.
Some people wanted me to make a post here and I'm bored so I thought I'd share some quick thoughts on the subject. Though I'd rather it be left alone I don't care about the result because at the moment I am content with playing without S&Q regardless since that is the way I enjoy to play the game (excluding max% and low% because they were S&Q legal categories before I ran them) whether or not everyone else plays with S&Q. Just want to help people out with understanding a couple things.
Banning S&Q was not just to prevent save warp. If what Veman has told me is accurate, It originated from SDA rules which though are irrelevant, some communities choose to maintain the rule that exiting a file segments the run while others throw away the rule. LM has kept that rule. To A2Rhombus, your run should not have been on the leaderboard. A while back I do remember some mods allowing the run anyway because new runners die a lot on English HM. I personally was not for that idea because, well, it did break the rule. (Note: For "lower ranked times" I never checked for deaths. I just checked to make sure their time seemed legit enough so I wouldn't doubt that I may have fed into verifying some S&Q runs.)
So there is the background on why it is banned. Not because we didn't want people to save warp. To my knowledge nobody thought of Weston save warping until I was trying to optimize low% in late 2013 because I was thinking of the uses of save warp since it was the only category at the time that had legalized S&Q. S&Q was banned long before me and was most likely never legal for main categories.
On the side of unbanning save warp, to bring up another point that nobody mentioned, it is a bit strange that low% is technically faster than any% from an optimal standpoint because low% has less money counting frames and require the same in-game minimum AND you are allowed to S&Q in low% but not in any%.
It makes very little sense that its banned for Any% but not Low%. It's not an immense time save, so it doesn't pose as such a significant change. And if there's no other reason besides old SDA rules that Vark mentioned, I think it should be allowed.
I think it shouldn't be banned. In other games, such as OoT, save warping is used to warp to a destination closer to where you need to go in order to follow the route or whatever. So...why would this change for LM? It's not against the rules on SRL as Sarcrai said. A speedrun is all about saving time, and beating the game as fast as possible. Without using any cheating or hacking devices of course, and save warping isn't hacking or cheating. This is just my opinion though...I'm not speedrunning this game currently, but will be learning it in the following days.
Like everyone stated. There's no reason for this to be banned. Like skozzy mentioned, this would only save time if you get the one cycle on the cold room boo. I say un-ban it, save and quit warping is allowed in a lot of other games, why would this one be an exception? Isn't the point of speedrunning to try and beat the game as fast as possible and have fun, why so many restrictions? If the runner submits a run on the leader-board, plays on a disc and uses this save warp, allow it. I see no reason for this to be banned, and like some mentioned, had no idea this was banned in the first place.
So the main reason the rule existed was because the community decided to keep it that way a while ago. The community has changed a lot since then (I mean, I wasn't around back then, but I figure that must have at least been several years ago) and now it seems like the vast majority are in favor of changing the rule, so even with the arguments presented for the save warp ban, I still think it makes more sense for it to be lifted.
I think it shouldn't be banned as well. It would just mean we are using the legitimate game disc to our advantage by saving and quitting to save time (similar to Mario Kart 64 and even Banjo Kazooie). It also doesn't make sense to have it allowed in low% but not in other categories. Either all or nothing I'd say.
Proposal: Would anyone be interested in creating another column in the leaderboard that did not alter what place you were in but did inform people who used s&q or not? If you need an example of what it would look like, you can visit speedrun.com/bk and notice that it tells whether or not a player used the FFM glitch but it does not alter the rankings in any way and it avoids creating another category.
Edit: Even I have problems with my own proposal but I wanted to put it out there anyway. I think it is something to consider.
I don't understand why we would need a column to say whether someone used the trick or not. It seems like irrelevant information. Like, should we also add a column to show if people got early release or not? That doesn't make sense to me. I don't know about FFM, so the comparison is lost on me, but as far as LM goes I don't think we need to do anything other than allow the trick, end of story
Vark, I like the idea to try to make sure everything is fairly compensated for. I'd say if this was a major difference in the run that changes the route entirely, then yeah do the columns. However, since it's 11 seconds and you can still technically get wr w/o the trick, I don't think the additional column is truly necessary. If something better comes out of S+Q in the future, then maybe. But for now I'd say no.
Also, we're going to give this until Friday night until 11:59 eastern and from there we'll see what the majority is. If there's a clear one side then we'll lift the ban. I believe that's fair. I'll add this to the original post as well.
In all seriousness, we should have a straw poll for the most accurate reading's on who wants it banned and who doesn't. Seems like the most logical way, and will give us a very clear answer on what will happen. That is up to everyone though if we should have a straw poll, i just think it would help narrow any confusion.
Straw polls can be abused, theoretically. Having people give there thoughts here is more fair. There's no need for anonymity in the subject, we want real people giving their opinions. It's not like anyone will hold it against each other if they disagree
Yeah, I don't know how abusing Straw Polls works, but I do remember the first time I made a poll for my stream, it got like 80 votes on the same option even though that stream only had like 3-4 unique viewers over the course of the whole thing.
I also have seen Strawpolls get "hacked" so to speak. Not reliable in the slightest. That being said, this is a good method with solid input nonetheless <3
I believe that maybe we should add a separate column because like Vark said the people that want it unbanned can submit their times there and the people that want it to stay banned can post their times in the other column. It only makes sense, and yes like Vark also said, Rhombus your run was only allowed with deaths because the time wasn't that great so they allowed it. Dying in runs is banned. It's the same instance, if you exit out of your file your run is invalidated.
Or if we really wanted to, we could do like we did with USB for a little while. Beside the times we could put like "S&Q" or something to separate the times that did the save warp from the times that didn't. Just another idea I had.
And the mark beside the times wouldn't be arbitrary because everyone's running on the same version and the only difference is S&Q, even one change like that should be marked. And I know you'll say it's just like using any other strat, but you're actually exiting out of your file, which is why it should be labeled.
It is 11 seconds, not worth putting something like that on the leaderboards, and if we did that is just stupid. Everyone has the capability to do S&Q, not everyone could use USB, and its not a fake timesave. If you still don't want to do it, you wont have to, no one is gonna force you to do the S&Q, either way you can get wr with it or without it ATM.
