I'd appreciate it if we could get some further clarification from the MODs, concerning my previous question, for Pop1 SNES Warp category.

RTA rules clearly states that timing begins on the first active frame. But the current #1 record for this category is starting later, after the player has played the game for a little bit, and performed some necessary tricks to prevent the level 8 warp from freezing the game. Then, after they've done some early tricks, they start level one from a later time, and not the original state, and not from the first active frame.

If you don't have to show the setup before the warp, as a part of the run, then I'm about to submit a sub-18 minute run, and let everyone wonder how I set it up.

[edit #1 -- I have edited this post to single out the #1 record. -- I have confirmed on my console that Zotmeister's #2 record is legitimate, and was correctly performed, recorded, and timed.]

[edit #2 -- MODs have updated rules, and top submission has been redone to comply.]

Someone finally made me sign up for this sanity-forsaken, no-privacy-policy website. Good thing I have an extra email address I can be spammed at.

Ahem. There are two errors in your message: "submissions" and "necessary". The first should be singular, and the latter is just wrong. I'll tackle these one at a time.

I DID show my run setup, thank you very much. I DO demonstrate, in my highlight, that I started from a power-on, and I go through the controller settings to prove that no set up has taken place; the "KILL" option would appear on a button if that were not the case. (I have since also taken to showing the Best Times screen as blank on my runs now, although I did not do that here.) You can easily be forgiven for not knowing this, though, as this intro that proves my innocence is SKIPPED by whoever uploaded my record video to this site (which was NOT me, I just made an account here to make this comment).

Here is my actual current-record (despite what this website says) highlight, with the intro in place:

The only other person to have submitted for this category at the time I'm writing this is a cheat, and they know it. When my first run was uploaded here to speedrun.com, there was no separate warp category, and they took it unto themselves to disturb my Twitch stream (while I was playing something else entirely) to harass me and call me a cheater, and despite my offering to demonstrate exactly what I do, they refused and simply opted to continue to bug me. I firmly believe that they tried to outdo my record just to spite me, but motive is inconsequential here; what matters is that they broke the golden rule of speedrunning. They spent no time whatsoever trying to make the wrong warp work in a speedrun setting rather than a TAS setting, which is exactly what I did. They simply borrowed the (inferior for a speedrun) method off of the tasvideos.org forums. They have CLEARLY done advance setup prior to starting the timer for the run, and aren't even trying to hide it; the Prince is already sprite-corrupted at the onset. This is, exactly as you note, in CLEAR violation of the one rule common to all speedruns. And yet, when this was pointed out to a moderator, all he did was argue with me about it, which frankly deeply disappoints me. That run (and its runner) should both be removed from this site forthwith. If they aren't, well, then this site DESERVES that run you have planned, Akuma; at least you are openly admitting that you'd be flagrantly violating the rules that should be in place but aren't being enforced here.

As for "necessary" being wrong, I sort of did that already, but if you'd like further proof, here's the GDQ submission video I made of an almost-record run (to be honest, I'm still stunned it didn't get in to the event):

You can see me turn the console on and everything in that video. I never reset the console during the run, nor do I lock up the game on warp. Yes, this is a technique I discovered myself, thank you very much. It took quite a bit of refinement, but not exactly a lot of time; it is both as simple and not nearly as simple as it looks.

While I'm here typing all this, I suppose I should note what I feel the rules should be for this category, given that for all intents and purposes I invented it:

1) The console must be power-cycled prior to the run. [That this was done will be proved in following rule 3.]

2) Neither passwords nor the cheat code may be used at any point during or prior to the run. [This should be a rule for EVERY category for this game, if it isn't a golden-rule-that-applies-to-ALL-speedruns already. The cheat code requires pausing to activate and makes a sound effect when triggered, so this should be obvious. Note that insta-killing enemies is NOT evidence of the cheat code: the wrong warp corruption enables that!]

3) It must be demonstrated that no corruption or cheat-code use from prior to the start of the run is present. This is done by bringing up the "OPTION" menu and cycling through one of the button's settings to show that "KILL" is not present among them. Also, "STEREO" should be showing as the default sound option when the menu is first opened. [Fun fact: the wrong warp's corruption also changes the sound option to read "MONO", but leaves the sound in stereo. Ideally, "BEST TIME" should be opened as well to show that it is blank in good faith, but I believe that to be redundant.]

4) The timer for the run starts when control of the Prince is first gained after selecting "GAME START" on the menu. [This is a 3-second delay from when "GAME START" is chosen.]

There's one more rule, but it basically has two possible versions. Perhaps these should be separate tracks. This is what I would want it to be for right now, as it's what I currently do and there's as yet no evidence toward the contrary being better:

5) The console cannot be reset at any point during the run.

However, it may well be shown in the future that a significantly better overall time can be had if resetting is allowed (I understand the TAS people are working on a warp to a later stage that might require this, unlike my warp to level 8 which doesn't), so at some point it may make sense to have a separate "Warp w/ Reset" category that has this rule instead:

5) The console may be reset during the run, but the timer continues to run during this process. Note that rule 4 still applies to when the Prince is FIRST controllable. Any attempt to "set up" the run with play prior to the timer being started is cheating. [As has always been the case for every speedrun ever. Except this one if you'd believe this site. Shameful.]

I firmly believe that anything short of these rules as I've presented them here is just going to leave the category open to further cheating, and as far as I personally am concerned, anyone violating them simply isn't competing against my record. With that said, I have not been trying to get the best possible time with my run; I have been trying to make it as safe and consistent as possible, as my goal is to get my technique into a marathon event, not to retain a world record. With that said, I'm certainly interested in seeing what innovation can occur in the track; perhaps my discovery can help the TAS people, and vice versa, and perhaps a speedrun-stable, no-reset warp to deeper in the game can be discovered.

Well, I think we're on the same page. I must offer my congratulations to you for discovering that technique to immediately warp without the need for intermediary "buffer" glitches, which I had previously failed to discover. As a reward, I'll offer you a tip. I've discovered your technique, and I'll avoid spelling it out, since you avoided doing so. But I'll offer you an improvement. If, instead of jumping directly into the wall, and doing the warp in a total of 5.5 seconds, you were to spend an extra 6 seconds to do the following alternate warp entry, you will find the Prince (and the guards) to be completely visible on level 8, which is a moderate help in traversing the invisible level -- it may even help enough to save more than 6 seconds. You can run to the edge, turn & climb down the hole and back up again, twice, and then turn and run off the edge, and exit on the last frame. This spacing, a bit further away from the wall, will avoid turning the Prince into a mirage of bricks.

Anyway, I'm in agreement with you that the other guy's video needs to be redone. He obviously had another minute or two of game-play to corrupt his sprite and "loosen up" the level 8 warp, and that time should be counted against him.

However, I wouldn't call the player a cheat. I would just say that the category has not been properly enforced, and as such, the player has not been made properly aware of the exact particulars, as far as determining the official time is concerned.

I'll also put your mind at ease by letting you know that in the near future, I may consider putting all my individual level performances together, and submit a sub-20 record that will make the other guy's video irrelevant. lol.

A few responses to your comments:

I think it's basically unnecessary to provide any proof that you haven't cheated or entered codes, because the video itself really proves whether or not you used or took advantage of any extra-curricular cheats. The Warp Glitch fairly well speaks for itself, and by this time, it's common knowledge that the only tool needed here is the Kill Button, which is automatically unlocked by the glitch. Unfortunately, another cool time-saving tool is the Sound Menu, which, after performing a warp glitch, cannot be accessed via START+SELECT again until after Debug Code is input. I thought it might be an interesting discussion to consider the possibility of allowing Debug Menu for the purposes of accessing Sound Menu. It's easy enough to verify, by watching the video, that Level Jump and Health Boost were not used once Debug Menu is reactivated.

The Console Reset Button is another interesting topic. Some of the cool setups I've discovered do require a console setup. And I've had to create work-arounds to avoid the reset button (which take longer), to ensure that a non-reset version is available for use, in case of rules limitations, etc. Personally, I think Reset Button should definitely be allowed for speedruns, and it's just up to the player to decide whether or not it's worth it to spend the extra 25 seconds waiting for the Title Screen. I definitely agree that all game-play involved in the setup should be counted against you, including optional console reset.

I'm glad you joined the speedrun forum for this little discussion. I'm sure you'll be quite surprised to see what I have in store for this category. If you want a sneak peak, you can check out the TAS Forum discussion, linked here in the SNES Warp Rules, and skip ahead to page 6, where I've posted a litany of hand-made glitch videos on my console, as well as complete speedrun videos for the individual levels 6 thru 20, with some cool comparison videos.

I edited my original post to single out the #1 record, and confirm that your record has been correctly documented.

However, I would offer a possible correction. I think you stopped the timer at the wrong place. I think we're supposed to count time until the first frame of the Princess's Bedroom, not earlier when the Prince touches the finish line in level 20.

The timer on a speedrun - any speedrun - ends when control of the player character is taken away. (Even if there's nothing meaningful a player can do for a period at the end, like waiting for a final boss to finish its death animation, if the player character can still move, the time is still included.) That rule is correct; the parenthetical remark at the end of it is incorrect. Control is lost as soon as you hit the edge of the screen BEFORE the princess's room (the exact moment is announced by a music cue). I suspect that the rule as it currently reads was simply cut and paste from the rule for the DOS version, where there's no delay entering her room from the one prior, without any consideration of this version being any different. Which it totally is. That bit in parentheses is correct for DOS, but is simply in error for the SNES version. So that's something ELSE to be edited

My feeling regarding resets is that it's a TAS thing, not a speedrun thing. TASes are timed from console power-on for a very good reason, and this game is a prime example. From power-on, the expectation is that literally anything goes; whatever the console can accept as input is fair game. The very video that clued me in to a wrong warp being possible reset the console multiple times; solving how to make that into something workable without a reset was a grand puzzle. Speedruns have the advantage of not starting the clock until you're done menuing. This game in particular isn't the only one where that sort of thing matters (as an example, ask Arcus about his "mashmashmash" on the title screen of Ninja Gaiden), but it is perhaps the one with the greatest possible effect in that department XD To me, resetting the console during a run, knowing the run is still going, strikes me as so counterintuitive as to make me question whether it should even count as a speedrun at that point. I think of, for example, going to a GDQ and having to reset the console mid-run. How would viewers respond to that? This is why I really feel that if resetting is allowed, it should be in a separate track. As long as that's the case, I wouldn't be opposed to it. I might even run that category, but only if it is ever discovered that the time savings is significant for some as-yet-undiscovered route (and even then, I'd probably try to make it work without the reset; heck, I've done exactly that once already). Failing that, I'm only interested in non-reset options. Intentionally locking up a game and resetting it as part of a timed excursion doesn't entice me

As I implied during my GDQ submission video, I am aware of that tasvideos.org forum topic (I had figured you were the same Akuma, but didn't want to assume); I am certain you'll be cracking this whole game wide open in short order. I would simply ask that the distinctions between speedruns and TASes be kept intact; what is best for one isn't always best for the other. Part of the reason I haven't explicated my method is that I'd like others to experiment and see if they can find their own, better way than the one I'm using; I really only went as far as "this one consistently works with minimal lag, let's go with that for the submission". My own attempts to experiment with it have so far only led to laggier starts (by which I mean right after the wrong warp, the game slows down for a few screens) and/or the time remaining constantly flashing during the game (which is more than a visual annoyance; the triple jump in level 18 may be impossible with that going on, as it will cause a necessary input to get eaten during the process), but it may be possible to improve upon, or perhaps even be necessary for future tech to work without resets.

Hello.

First of all, I'm not a mod for this game but I am a mod for the PoP series as a whole. I'm not all too knowledgeable about this run so please bear with me.
I wanted to talk about a few things regarding this thread and in particular your messages Zotmeister.

The current WR is no subject to cheating and it's not right to call the runner a cheater as he does not violate the rules in its current (and maybe soon: previous) form. Do the rules need a change? Perhaps, and it's a valid point to discuss the matter. But badmouthing someone like you did is no means courteous behaviour so please refrain from doing something like this in the future. Even if the rules change and the current WR becomes invalid, this would not mean that there was any form of cheating involved.

You said you sent a message to a mod--which mod was it? Also did you try to talk to another mod afterwards? There are multiple mods for all active PoP games for a reason and there are also the series mods as last resort. In general we're talking about all of this among the community--so if the mod argued with you that's great because you can address your request and possibly change things as you think best. There wasn't--and I hope there won't be--any onesided decision in the history of PoP speedrunning. The subject of this thread is currently being discussed by all the mods in the PoP community.

If something is amiss, please talk to us about it open-mindedly. Nobody is keeping you away from the community. Our discord as well as all possible communication with me personally are public so you can come and talk to me. It's the same thing regarding your method to do the warp. Even if I don't like the fact that you're not sharing it--as I believe speedrunning is all about sharing and enjoying discoveries with others people--it is your right to do so. You don't have to shut yourself off in any way. Speedrunning is all about cooperative work and it's the same for leaderboard rules. You have a draft of what you think the rules should be and you're a runner of the game so it's a valid thing to send it to a mod and initiate a discussion.

To summarize: it's unfortunate that your message is aggressive and rather crude because your point is a valid subject of discussion. To not pollute this thread any further, my DM on twitter as well as on discord are open to pursue this discussion further (with me or any other mod).

Have a nice day and we will keep this thread updated with any changes that may or may not occur.

thank you 7eraser7, thank you Zotmeister for calling me a cheater, when I ask you for help with the glitch that you made me understand that you did not want to help me, my race is very legit, I do not cheat and start again do not save time, the only exception to start again is that level 8 is back to normal with the exception of the prince

Thanks, 7eraser7. I would note that zotmeister was not being aggressive, but defensive. I had called his run into question, as well as Skinomarsh's, and he needed to offer clarification. I think we understand now, the difference between the two runs.

Skinomarsh's mistake was in trying to imitate the form of zotmeister's video, by just starting with the warp. Now that we have discussed the difference, I think we are in a good position to start making the rules more clear.

Zotmeister, while the rules are being discussed, I would offer a counter-argument to when the time should stop. The general idea of the rule is to pick a spot that is the same for everyone, and can be visually confirmed with a frame count. I think that the "finish line" is not a good place to end, because it's basically an audio confirmation as to when the music starts.

With some sprites, or positions, the Prince can be concealed for 1 or 2 more frames of animation behind the curtain before the music is initialized. And when the music starts, the flame is still flickering. So there really is no visual confirmation there, to cover every scenario.

Next, in all other levels, the game clock is still ticking, and game control (accessing menus, pausing) is still available while the music is playing, and for those levels, speedrun time for individual levels would not end on the frame you push "up" to go into the Exit Doorway.

On level 20, you can access the "Select Menu" after the Prince has reached the finish line, to pause game clock, for the purpose of achieving "0:00" time on Best Times for level 20. So in that instance, you are still intentionally playing the game after the Prince touches the finish line.

All these tell me that, dispite this version of the game being different from the others, it still seems appropriate to me for the time to end on the first frame of the Princess Bedroom, when control is truly lost, and a visual confirmation of frame count can be made.

We can't use the music for accurate time, because there might be a slight audio sync issue for some people. And otherwise, using a human hand to manually stop a clock when the music plays is not accurate, even to 0.1 seconds.

All this is to say that I think the rule should be left as is, for the Princess Bedroom, and that you should recalculate your time.

the time is perfect or it stops and all the runner stops the time at this moment, no need to change his, I invite you to listen to my new WR when it will be approved, you will not be able to say that I am a cheater

To restate our opinion for the MODs, Zot & I believe the rules should clearly explain that the speedrun must begin the first time you start a "New Game" from power-on. You cannot start a game, do some warps, exit, and then begin the run on another "New Game" later. All game-play intended to alter the status of things, to make the wrong warps work the way you want them to, should be counted as a part of the speedrun time.

Really, though, the only way to verify that this rule is followed, is if the MOD approving the submission is familiar with how the warps work. Experts like myself & Zot would immediately be able to tell if a player left out some extra steps, if the warp behaves differently than expected. As I said, all warps speak for themselves, in that anyone can turn on a console or emulator, and attempt to do the exact same trick they see in the video. If the video is different from what the player can recreate, then it's possible a step was left out, and the speedrun is incomplete (and invalid).

I'll leave it to you, Zotmeister; but I think for the integrity and consistency of the category, we should explain your technique -- if not publicly, then at least to the MODs in private, so they can understand on sight what is happening when a new guy submits a run.

Skinomarsh, we are not calling you a cheater anymore. I understand your English is difficult, and I've been talking too much. On behalf of Zot, we offer an apology for the sharp words. You made a mistake by leaving out a step, and the MODs made a mistake by not making the rules clear. We are in the process of fixing that.

Your run is very good, and you may be able to figure out Zot's technique, or add a small amount of time to show the way you make the warp work best for you.

We look forward to seeing your new video.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I have updated the SNES (Warp) rules in accordance with the proposed ideas (or so I believe). This does of course not mean that it can't be subject to possible further changes.

https://www.speedrun.com/pop1/run/zp0el0nm

Nice run, skino! Very solid!

Zot & I have our work cut out for us.

thank you, I have a small mistake but it was a good race, I do not think the sub 24 is possible, maybe with a new strat or a glitch , I can not wait to see your run Akuma (i know , my english is bad , i speak french)

Skino, I have to tell you, my old individual level runs (levels 8 thru 20) from 4 months ago add up to about 21 minutes. I say 4 months ago, because I've spent the last 3 months perfecting my "Gate Thief" videos, which follow a different path. I've been watching the seconds fall away like leaves from a tree. You will be shocked when you see how much time you are wasting on each level.

It actually is amazing how much time you save with small changes. I expect that if I spend a month practicing the regular path (from your video), I will be safely below 21.5 minutes total, and maybe very close to 21 minutes for the record.

I recommend that you study Challenger's TAS, and employ more discipline in your runs. There's a ton of time to be saved.

When you take away the guards with Kill Button, about 95% of the tricks used in the TAS are very easy and usable. It's just a matter of practice and memory.

it is possible to do better, but with very difficult strategies to perform in the run, if you succeed within 21 minutes, I will be the first to congratulate you.