Hello, I'm just a very bad runner who hopes to do some more runs of X7 on PC in the coming days but I had a big question on my mind. Two very good runners of the game, CptAbearica and ThePeterAfro, don't have their times listed on this board and I'm very sure I've spoken to them and they've tried submitting to here before. At first I thought maybe the PC version wasn't accepted but I saw on the board that Necromancia's times are still up for both categories even though they're on PC. Was there some underlying reason as to why these two had their times either rejected or ignored?
Other than that I guess I do have another small question that may or may not pertain to the first. What do you have to do to actually become a mod or super mod for a game? Can a person who doesn't even run a game have it and set rules that the running community does not agree with and block times from the leaderboard? Thanks in advance for any answers you have for me.
Seems pretty silly to remove someone's times just because of a personal dispute.
[quote=Izraill]@kirkq and cyberdemon531 I would usually not want to get into this, but I think it’s necessary to explain Cyber’s points and the issue with the X7 leaderboard. X5 is, technically, fine, since the current mod does run that game and has very good times in it. X7, however, is a different case. As explained in this thread by PeterAfro ( http://www.speedrun.com/mmx7/thread/sk6o2 ) he banned something the community explicitly allowed, despite allegedly being told that in Twitter multiple times.
A summarized version of what happened (as seen from my perspective –if anyone sees wrong information and can correct it please do–) would be: everyone had been running in the PC version, which is Korean, but they had been using a version that had an English patch. The moderator we’ve been talking about went and did a "joke" (or so he claims) about timing it to see if English patch affected timing and banning it from the other leaderboards if it did so. Someone posted it on Twitter and people got angry. He said something along the lines of "it was a joke but now I’ll actually do it." He went and did it even though the X7 community had all agreed practically unanimously that running in the patch was perfectly fine. He then banned all the runs of that game done in the patch and proceeded to create the X7 leaderboard in this site before the actual runners got the chance, having the advantage of being a series mod, effectively enforcing his decision.
One could go and gather opinions from all the people who have actually run that game and most –if not all– would agree that the rule applied was not agreed upon and that the mod needs to be changed. Personally, I think PeterAfro should be the one moderating the leaderboard of Mega Man X7, being an active runner who is in contact with the community. I would also like to suggest that all further discussion about this specific game was directed to the thread I linked previously, with special focus in a question presented in the opening post: [/quote]
Pretty much all the information I have available is here. If there were discussions that went on aside from that, I can't really see them. https://twitter.com/peterafro/status/576166254173503489/photo/1
This leads me to believe that pretty much no one involved has taken any time to host any formal discussion. If there was formal discussion, could someone link me to it?
This page discusses some of the organizational changes that the MMRTA community made regarding X series games, but I didn't see any posts regarding X7 when skimming. http://jokaah.com/mmrta/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160&start=25
I have a few questions for now, I might have more later.
1: How long has this English patch been around? 2: The patch has something to do with grabbing the data from the Playstation version, right? Could someone elaborate on the details of that? 3: What is the most common reason people are using the English patch? 4: How many runners have used the English patch? 5: How many runners have used the Korean original? 6: Is the English patch faster than the Korean PC version? 7: If so, how much faster is the English patch? 8: MMRTA used to track the PC English version, correct? 9: How long were they tracking the English PC version? When did they start and end roughly?
I had hoped to better understand this by spending some time reading, but I came up with more questions than answers.
1: THe patch was made on January 29th 2006. 2: To quote from http://twigstechtips.blogspot.com/2008/10/rockman-x7-korean-to-english-patch.html "The translation was done by ripping the PS2 files into the PC version of the game" 3: I am not sure about Cptabearica and KSDC, but I use the patch because my download (http://www.theisozone.com/downloads/pc/windows-games/rock-man-x7-mega-man-x7-pc/) was prepatched. 4: 3, KSDC, Cptabearica, and me 5: 1, Necromancia 6: No one has tested it, but it is highly unlikely since the patch does not created glitches and I doubt English text is shorter then Korean. 7: see 6 8: correct 9: THey started when the leaderboards where created (sometime in 2013) and stopped on March 20th 2015.
Can someone for the sake of argument do a comparison of some or all relevant cutscenes and see how it affects time?
If it's an equal or slower game as seems to be speculated by the previous post I don't really see any major argument against it other than purely on the basis of "it's a hack" If it actually is faster, the argument would need framed in that context. I'd rather know which of those two discussions we are actually having before changing anything.
claims to not want joke leaderboards. >bans something the community for a game he does not run said is fine. okay
I speedrun for the competition so no.
LuizMiguel I think your attitude towards this causes far more problems than it solves honestly. You're reasonably entitled to not want to interact with these people, but your aggressive and overly confrontational way of dealing with disagreements is pretty much not productive and pretty much equally "shitter" behavior in my opinion.
The site could certainly use more layout options to better discern between categories while still maintaining modularity, but I don't see anything fundamentally incorrect with the data on the X4 and X6 pages. You can click to the data you want to click to with the filters, and it's up to the user what information they value.
Anyway my previous question about the time difference still stands, I would like to know. The discussion topic is purely the merits of tracking times for a relatively common hack in a relatively common language.
there is some weight to both sides of the scale in this argument. after organized and planned the 2nd & 3rd relay races of MMX know a fair bit about x7.
Here's the thing the X7 Ios are modified to run English text and VO, resulting in an odd compresion of V.O. at points and that is all that is know about the patch's effects. PC is flat out faster the PS2 due to load times, though ps2 has a small time save of quick weapon swap.
The patch may cause slower or or faster loading ( most likely slower if anything) but iirc cutscene can be skipped once loading is done i believe so english VO VS Japanese VO is a moot point.
from when i hosted the really i know cptabearicas time was the best and faster then fisdunctions w/ pc patched and i belive cirno has also beaten the top time as well, but again iirc it was a patched pc version. peterafro may indeed have a faster time but it is most likely on pc w/ patch.
i was told pc saves several minutes over ps2, but in varying amounts like 15-20 minuets, but it is still in comparable to console, and then the V.O. patch screws it all up. because the patch w/ and w/o pc version, and the pc VS ps2 timeing has never formally been made ever.
so the long and the short of it kirkq, is no one has ever bothered to check the data nor will they most likely ever do it. pc will always be faster then ps2 but there isnt a definitive number just a ball park, and there is no one that knows if the english patch messes with that
English patch is officially a hack, aka not original game. That's all you need to know bud
One of the main issues is that the game comes pre-loaded with the english patch online, and most runners just downloaded the game online rather than import it from korea. Either way, if the patch is slower (which is what people say it is) then there is no reason to ban it. Cirno is trying to do comparisons at the moment but cannot find a korean version without importing the physical copy which would take weeks.
There's no need to make a new category, just add a variable to the existing ones.
Cyber is not getting mod when I gain control.
"destroy another leaderboard"
it's ironic that this is precisely what you're doing and what we are trying to fix. I don't really want mod, I just want the leaderboard for this game to be accurate, so that if someone were to want to run this game in the future, they could find the record easily, and not have to sift through drama with some person that doesn't play the game.
How is it a joke? What is so funny? The leaderboard here is not accurate, as it does not have more than half of the runs that have been done listed due to some personal grievance. Also, why do you keep bringing up irrelevant topics?
Well I came in at a cool time. I'm sorry I've been remiss to return here but I did manage to do the testing for cutscenes. Being right here http://pastebin.com/ik512UcA
Now I can understand some of the grievances, hacked or patched so not official, could possibly give unfair advantage, make the community look bad etc.
But if I'm allowed to give my two cents, I'm not sure those points bare much if any fruit. It's true, it's not an official version but it doesn't give any advantage in fact checking the data you're only handicapping yourself. Now the Korean discs are actually quite cheap so it's not much issue getting your hands on one, but the waiting period can be quite long as it ships from South Korea only I believe. And as for the community looking bad, I'm not so sure that's important more so from the standpoint that we're pretty much just here. X7 has and always will be the black sheep, people will just pass by not caring about the run, runners, or the base game so I'm not so sure we'd be even seen as anything for doing this. We're a very small group and not likely to get any bigger, so I'm not sure leaving out runners who choose to go slower is for the best.
[quote=LuizMiguel]I didn't say you want mod. I said you want your friend to have it so he can do whatever you want.[/quote]
It was me who suggested first that Peter be given mod, not Cyberdemon. Not because he is a friend of mine (I don't know him any more that I know you) but because I recognize him as an active runner that contributes.
[quote=LuizMiguel]just see what they did to X6[/quote]
Two things: 1) Other games are irrelevant to discussion abuot X7. 2) Since you seem to want to discuss it though, the X6 board in this site is meant to be an alternative to MMLB, since in this site there are several ways to visualize the content, including it making it just as it is in MMLB, which can be done easily by selecting"PlayStation" from the console dropdown list. It is currently designed with that purpose in mind, it was even me who messaged Pac about adding an option to hide emulators so that visualization could be as customizable as possible, and it was added. If the X7 community wants to have an alternative, I don't see why to stop them from it.
[quote=kirkq]LuizMiguel I think your attitude towards this causes far more problems than it solves honestly. You're reasonably entitled to not want to interact with these people, but your aggressive and overly confrontational way of dealing with disagreements is pretty much not productive and pretty much equally "shitter" behavior in my opinion. [/quote]
I can't but agree partially on this. Every time a discussion happens and either Cyberdemon or anyone who knows him and seems to not be in bad terms with him tries to argue, your replies always come off a bit hostile, often with references to events not relevant to the discussion at hand, such as the previously mentioned: [quote=LuizMiguel]I didn't say you want mod. I said you want your friend to have it so he can do whatever you want.[/quote] with the related [quote=LuizMiguel]So you guys can destroy another leaderboard.[/quote] (spoiler: we (moderators of the X6 leaderboard you imply to talk about) didn't destroy anything) And [quote=LuizMiguel]reminder that cyberdemon got a well deserved permanent ban from SRL[/quote] [quote=LuizMiguel] no wonder why you got permanent ban on SRL for being annoying all the time for everyone.[/quote] Again, irrelevant.
That is all I wanted to say about this, I know this isn't the main topic of this thread either -I do not have much to add to the main discussion, since while I know the game, I know I'm not a runner-, but the conversation appeared to be derailed by it so I wanted to give a response.
English patch is taken off the leaderboard along with WR for the potential of it being faster it's been confirmed slower both current mods do not have a submitted run for the game and appear from an outward perspective to have no/poor relation with the X7 community one mod is not active and the other mod is blatantly rude It's been 3 weeks and this hasn't been sorted out yet
What is taking so long to change the moderation?
Per Izraill's suggestion, I'm putting PeterAfro as mod. I don't know much about him personally, but the expectation will be for him to act neutrally as far as the maintenance of the board is concerned. If moderators are added and are creating board drama due to attitude issues, we'll find new moderators.
Making all games in a series fit the exact same standard isn't currently a great solution for this site. This decision is primarily "game oriented"
Instead of a "hack", I would call this an "unofficial translation."
The site has some expectation that boards do reasonable things with the data set.
- This translation goes from an obscure language to the most common language on this site.
- This translation is possibly more prevalent online than the original game.
- This translation has been around a long time.
- This translation is slower than the official version. (If it were faster, that's a discussion for another day in my opinion.)
- This game is not for a console with a specific amount of released games.
- The community of the game using this site wants to track this translation.
I think that is reasonable. As long as the modularity of the data allows looking at data sets with and without this criteria, it's basically just another way to look at the board.
This decision encompasses all of that criteria. It does not imply anything outside of that criteria.