Lands of Lore: The Throne of Chaos Forum  /  Requesting opinions on introducing glitches
  djeezdjeez
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Ooooh that's interesting for sure. I thought the item vanished forever. I wonder if there's some locations where that could be abused, IE leave an invis item on the floor to have it be an item that you want when you walk past later.

All this stuff has so many ramifications, it's crazy.

As for performing the copy glitch, I guess that's roughly how I do it too. But sometimes part 3 just won't seem to work at all. Someone in my chat suggested maybe the amount of lag the game was experiencing could be a factor... but I really don't know. The game is usually pretty stable. When they work well though, it's so easy. Like butter. Which is crucial because spending 10 seconds on a single one can be a run-killer for sure.

Any insider-info on Projectile-based illegal objects? I'm mostly wondering if they always take the 1st item slot for an area (for instance, trying to enter Mines3 with two plant-based illegals and one crossbow-based illegal, I end up with no Shiny Key). I'm guessing you can only use those if you only need the 1st item (like Vaelan's in Upper Opinwood)?

 
  kvkboneskvkbones
(edited: )

@Djeez, I agree that the amount of lag could be a factor, from the testing I have done, more entities in play reduces the success rate of a pick up using the border such as being surrounded by the wraiths of the white tower or in the catwalk caverns when they are full of spawned enemies. As for projectiles, yes they take the first available slot so if you create an illegal item from an aloe first and catch a projectile second, it will use the same slot as the aloe. Catching the projectile first then making another illegal item from an aloe second will use two different slots. Another possibility is if you use two different projectiles in a long enough corridor, for example a star on Baccata and a crossbow on Paulson, you can fire one and catch it to take one slot then fire both and catch the second projectile while the first is still in play to take the second slot. Keeping track of items in the item table can be difficult, in the video where I glitched the death wand onto Baccata's hands for example, the death wand is the fifth item created from going down the stairs so I needed four other items that were created by the game before the aloe on Baccata's shield hand... I had four left including a copy of the healing salve I glitched onto Kieran's hands. Another thing that can save time (and can cause problems if you forgot that you used a ginseng to cure poison, really annoying if you are trying to glitch a fireball wand into a hand) is using items without copying them still creates a free space, so if I only need the fifth item created by a level I could just use four items and copy and use the fifth item if it was created by the game after the other four items used. The way I keep track of the order of the items created is to fill the inventory bar with items in the order I picked them up from left to right, having items on the left created before items on the right makes it a little easier to keep track of if you only use items from the right side first.

 
  kvkboneskvkbones
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A quick look at how the game creates items in a list by opening save data in HxD in 5 steps:

Step 1: https://photos.app.goo.gl/eAoT43RbEgG8WVce8
Step 2: https://photos.app.goo.gl/362NMZsFDQ9c4gJU8
Step 3: https://photos.app.goo.gl/cBCGM3twCCKnTWpFA
Step 4: https://photos.app.goo.gl/hi8Hg1YrPqTvTncK8
Step 5: https://photos.app.goo.gl/MS9Y5MXHhEHH5frA6

Using the salve at the top of the list will make the game use that slot first when creating another item.

Edit1: Photo album messed up the order of the steps! I posted the images separately to be viewed in the proper order. Anyone who saw the album should look at this again to see it in the proper sequence. For some reason google counts up from 1 to 5 as 1, 2, 4, 3, 5.

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  djeezdjeez

Jenx! I see you lurking the thread. Are you learning any of this stuff yet? I struggle to find motivation to play when no one else is playing 🙁

 
  jenxjenx

@Djeez Yeah, I'm kinda short on time at the moment. 🙁 I was playing around with it a bit but it would require more focused effort over a longer period of time and I haven't found an opportunity yet. So for now I'm mostly just observing. And hyped for the first any% submission, whoever gives it a go.

Btw, regarding your earlier post: I get why you stopped submitting your runs but I would really like it if you could reconsider considering that the situation is quite different now. At the moment there's at least two people verifying runs (one of whom is me, and I'm around most of the time or at least get notified if anything pops up) and the community hasn't been this active in a long while. So might be as good a time as any to update the leaderboard so that it actually reflects what the WR is at the moment. I mean it's your decision, of course, but it'd be cool.

 
  djeezdjeez
(edited: )

Yeah I'll prob submit Any% once I get back to the routing and eventually get a run done(Tower is taking a lot of time because I'm struggling to figure out which route is actually better). As for the 35:55 Glitchless, I still have the vod on my hard drive, I'll get around to uploading it on youtube eventually. I also have the full stream sessions from that time if further proofcalling happens (I understand it can be kinda fishy that I don't have a highlight on my channel etc, but I believe you watched those runs live when they happened anyway).

You did a good job with the category separations btw!

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  PLANETPLANET

Hey Djeez, looking forward to that 35:55 : )

As for the hex thangs: been there, but to way lesser extent (Scotia editor helps a lil bit), but alas I feel it's not my style. Had some discoveries (none important speedrun-wise) in a normal play and still love this game, but I'm not sure if even try my hand at speedrunning it. Nevertheless, you're all doing a great job here so it's a pleasure to watch : )

 
  djeezdjeez
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Managed to finish a lousy 39:XX with the first draft of the route. I'm starting to believe sub 30 might not yet be possible with current knowledge 🙁 32 would seem like a solid time? Hard to say yet

Obviously the route still needs work and needs ton of practice but I think overall this saves much less time than anticipated for Wimpy. The big time saver is definitely Mines (90 seconds saved I want to say?). I thought Cimmeria would be a huge timesaver also but the amount of dupes required is time-consuming (even using the little trick to avoid duping all of them). I'm not even sure if a glitched Cimmeria would save a full minute over a good Glitchless Cimmeria at this point. But this is all in its infancy stage.

EDIT: a big bottleneck, as always, is how to trigger the end of the Yvel battle as fast as possible, consistently. I don't know if anyone has any insights on this. I've seen from 2m15s to 3m15s on similar looking battles.

 
  kvkboneskvkbones
(edited: )

@Djeez just throwing an idea out there (i'm more of a glitch hunter, not really a speedrunner so I don't really know if it's a good idea or bad idea), to avoid using the sides of the border which is risky as well as time consuming perhaps catching fired arrows or stars using the bottom border (you can just spam click without worrying about a hardlock since the illegal item just gets dropped on the ground in front of you) just to get one important item might be quicker. For example in the mines, just getting the key to Paulson by firing and catching an arrow then using two items after that to make the caught arrow become the key needed. Getting the bloodstone can be done by catching another arrow after that. White tower is probably better done the normal way, but being able to kill wraiths in one hit may make it a little easier. After getting the Xeob key in the dungeons with an arrow, using another arrow to get the Cobra figurine while getting the Dragon figurine the normal way would be safer without using the side borders and potentially less time consuming.

I don't know if my method for the Yvel battle would work any better but I usually run to Sadie's first, down to Victor's after that, then run back to Bruno's after checking the front gate to keep me in the right area when the battle's done. Thinking back on it, every time I can remember I finished the battle killing a great orc, maybe it's connected to number of orcs killed specifically?
(Edit: more testing with catching arrows this way with the bottom border makes it just as risky, if the arrow hits a wall while an illegal item is on the floor it becomes invisible and it can only be picked up by stepping back a space to use the border glitch to pick it up. Firing another arrow into this space will cause a hardlock.)

 
  djeezdjeez

Yeah testing all this with someone carrying a crossbow is on the to-do list for sure. And yes when I meant glitchless tower I guess I meant, getting all items the intended way. Skipping Vaelan's Cube animations to kill ghosts is definitely a time saver there.

Could definitely be the number of great orcs, though I swear I've had battles end while I'm just hitting some knights. I'll manually compare tapes and count how many mobs get killed sometimes this week. Something I should've done long ago really.

 
  kvkboneskvkbones

Just did a quick test comparing save data at the start of the Yvel battle to a save just before killing the last enemy to trigger the end. There were no obvious counters that I noticed, but there was a change in data in a section from 20 sets of data 46 bytes in length at the start and increasing to 30 sets of data 46 bytes in length at the end of the battle. I think this might be just the map data for Yvel, possibly meaning that there were ten more entities on the map at the end compared to the start. I'll update when I find out more, it's been a long time since I did this stuff and i'm re-learning it all over again.

 
  djeezdjeez

Seems to be 48 to 50 enemies killed to trigger the end. Not sure why I've never counted the exact amount. Sometimes it's hard to count because of clusters so 50 seems like a safe bet.

 
  djeezdjeez

33:58 first finished run with a slightly more polished route. Will upload to youtube soon for reference. Wasn't that great of a run but it surprised me with the timesaves in Cimmeria.

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  kvkboneskvkbones
(edited: )

Important update on using the border glitch without risk of hardlock!

One thing I overlooked and just realized which virtually eliminates the risk of causing a hardlock when using the border glitch is the difference between using the left and right mouse button in the action screen. A left click can pick up and throw items, but the right click can only pick up items and cannot throw them. So by using only a single left click to throw an item, the right mouse can be spam clicked after to catch the item in the air without any risk of throwing the copied items together causing a hardlock.
The only issue left to address is finding the correct pixels on the edge of the border to click without wasting too much time...

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  PLANETPLANET

Well, in this case the right mouse button can be bound to mousewheel (up or down) to ease up that spam click : )

 
  kvkboneskvkbones
(edited: )

New Glitch Discovered! - The Lantern Glitch

Who would have thought a lantern could be used to skip past Yvel? I still haven't tested this thoroughly yet so use it at your own risk!
Edit: I wonder if this can also be a skip for preparing the elixir if the item is the same before and after, possibly just triggering a game flag to proceed with the story?
Edit2: No skip for the elixir unfortunately, just tested it.

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  PLANETPLANET

Oooooooh, boy, that's a goood one : D Especially the ending, cracked me up. I think it should work consistently (aside of the crash), because IIRC maps are stored in different memory areas.

So you're saying that if you just entered Yvel you cannot simply skip to Catwalk's directly using the above trick?

 
  jenxjenx

That's my personal favorite so far, especially how the wall textures inside the small room don't load. xD In the video description you write that it allows you to get through the broken bridge area in Yvel Woods too -- that's where the unused exit/entrance to the Dungeons is located IIRC. Could you theoretically go Yvel Woods -> Dungeons directly? Would be a big timesaver to avoid Catwalk entirely.

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  kvkboneskvkbones
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@PLANET Unfortunately, the elixir has to be prepared first before glitching into the caverns. Trying to use the crucible on Richard without doing so will not work, Baccata just comments about having to heal Richard quickly before the poison kills him.
Another problem with this is the game has to crash and restart for this to work (unless I find another method), not forcing the game to crash by loading a game a second time will eventually lead to the game hardlocking. (EDIT: exiting the game instead of forcing a crash would also work)

@jenx Even though it is possible to get to the other side from Yvel Woods, the entry point to the Dungeons is blocked by an actual wall. This glitch will only allow passage through some barriers not marked as walls on the map, and every step taken with the glitch running could cause the game to hardlock (or in the best case it will crash, allowing a restart).

 
  djeezdjeez

What's the sequence of event here? Make some illegal items, then go into Thug's cave, and then back to Gladstone for the save? And then keep playing the game?

 
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