The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX Forum  /  Seashell Duping in 100%: Allow it or No? (Locked)
  LinkorangeLinkorange

I read all the posts above, and even if I'm not very active in the community, I wanted to share what I have to say, even if it doesn't seem "legit" ^^.

What happens here makes me think of a similar stuff which happened with ALTTP. Maybe some of you have heard about the YBA, or Yuzuhara's Bottle Adventure. It was a new glitch found in ALTTP which completely threw up the old classic "Any% No S+Q". Indeed, the glitch was not contradictory with the category rules, but it completely changed the route and the legendary WR at the time would be easily beaten.

There was a discussion around the glitch, a bit like this "Seashell duping" stuff, and after that, the community voted to create another category and to rename the existing one. This way, the famous "No Major Glitches" appeared from the classic "Any% No S+Q" and the new route was called "Any% No S+Q No OOB". People who liked the classic way of speedrunning the game could continue to speedrun the game the way they liked, and people who wanted to speedrun the game with this brand new glitch could too, with a leaderboards for each category.

My point is, why not doing the same thing for 100% ? You could rename the current hundo by, I don't know, "100% No Seashell Duping", and another one "100% with seashell duping", or any name you want (I'm bad for finding out names for categories :p). This way, people who want to speedrun the good old 100% category will be able to, and people who want to duplicate the seashell will be able to too.

Sorry if what I propose here is considered a stupid way of settling this, but still, it would be the better alternative for me, better than arguing whether or not to accept seashell duping, because you could keep both categories ^^.

ChotoTheBrightChotoTheBright, CransoonCransoon and Warr90Warr90 like this. 
  oSeabassoSeabass

Both sides seem to have real good points. If it came to a vote I would abstain. I know that seems like a cop out, but I haven't run hundo in forever. If I ever came back to it I'd do whatever the new tech is.

If I was FORCED to "vote" true opinion...
No heart duping, no shell duping, must get all 26 shells, must get all map/compass/beak from each dungeon, as well as all sword/upgrade/items/likeitisnow/etc.

-Bass

Warr90Warr90 likes this. 
  CransoonCransoon

I honestly feel like Linkorange might be onto something. It was my go-to solution, but I didn't want to suggest it, since we're already up to 6 categories in this game, and I was afraid it could make the game even more complex for new runners. Ideally, I feel like we would just allow SS duping, and be done with it. That being said, the focus for new runners likely wouldn't be 100% anyway, so what's another category?

At this point, I think I'd be fine with just splitting the categories. The current 100% category feels like it's trying to be too many things for too many people. It sounds like there are 2 prevailing opinions in this thread. There are people like Zorlax and Seabass who want to show off as much of the game as you can while remaining a speedrun, and people like Swordless and myself, who just want to go as fast as you can, so long as you meet the requirements of "12 photos, 12 heart pieces, all capacity upgrades, Color Dungeon, boomerang, Ocarina+Songs, L-2 everything (no WW, no OOB)".

I'm just spitballing here, but Zorlax said specifically in the discord on Saturday that he kinda thought getting 20 instead of 26 seashells was a mistake, and he's said earlier in the thread that he would have argued against the sequence breaking on the trading sidequest, if he was around when it was first put into runs. So why not make a "101% No Major Sequence Breaks" category (Or something like that, I'm terrible at names)? You could set the requirements for that one to get all 26 seashells, maybe maps/compasses/beaks depending on how people feel, and to not sequence break anything that will skip content. So the dungeon order and general bomb glitches wouldn't be an issue in that situation (the side effect of that wording would be Villa Skip not being allowed). We could create that, and then have the current 100% allow SS duping, and just continue forward as if nothing happened. This way, we avoid the very large pitfall of retroactively adding rules to a category, while making the rules for that category more well defined, and less ambiguous.

Again, I'm spitballing, and I'm sure my suggestion is rough around the edges in some ways I'm not seeing, but I think this would probably be the "everybody wins" scenario, since everybody gets their opinions recognized, and has a category to run that's suited to their tastes.

 
  CransoonCransoon

Just to respond to Rapid really quick, I think that we can justify Seashell duping in the same way that we can justify getting 20/26 seashells.

At the end of the game, there is literally zero difference between the two. If you get 20 individual seashells, 26 individual seashells, more than 26 seashells because of dupes. It doesn't matter. The moment you pick up the L-2 sword, the seashells no longer exist. Not on the map, not on the inventory screen. With heart piece duping, there will be a difference at the end of the game, because there will still be heart pieces sitting around, uncollected. That's just not the case with seashell duping.

It may not be as intuitive as "don't dupe things", but getting 20/26 seashells for 100% has never really been intuitive in the first place. That's why we needed to justify it in the first place.

GreenTunicGreenTunic likes this. 
  LeonPLeonP

I'm not really sure how much I can get into the "speedruns are about going fast" argument for 100% when 100% as a category only exists as a reactionary addition to the main category (warpless, any% No S+Q, then Any% NOSQWOOB respectively) - that is that the main category was cutting out of a lot of the content normally seen in the game and that runners missed or wished to see in the run. Honestly I'm of more of a mind to agree that trade sequence breaking and kamelot castle skip shouldn't be allowed but I don't think that would be a very tenable position, but I think 100% inherently is much more of a 'showcase' category than 'beat in the fastest time by any means necessary' just by the fact that the term "100%" is meaningless within LADX until our arbitrary rulesets have been applied to it (remember when 100% used to mean all-chests?).

And as much as in this specific occurrence it's not really skipping anything interesting or fun, I agree it does diminish that spirit and sets a precedent I'm not sure I jive with for 100%. I'd be more interested in an OOT-type definition (forgive me if I have the wrong game here) of "as long as the items are acquired legitimately" (e.g - justifying intra-dungeon tech like peahat boosting or super jumping but not sweeping sequence breaks, duping, or memory overflow for tunic). I'm not overly concerned with the accusations of the ruleset for this category being arbitrary when the definition and intention of it is arbitrary to begin with (we want to see the content we skip in faster categories but not the content we feel is insignificant or tedious).

BUSHY_DADBUSHY_DAD likes this. 
  ZorlaxSevenZorlaxSeven

I will remark on the idea of creating new categories. LADX has never been fond of splitting a category when a glitch was found (see SJ vs No SJ; Bomb glitch vs No Bomb Glitch). The biggest exception would be when ACE was still thought to be viable. I have never been a fan of having "too many categories" (and that is a whole discussion that we don't need to have here), as a result, I think splitting the categories would be just too much. VERY few people run 100%, and making a split would just have more categories with like 5 runs total (I'm looking at you: All Instruments, Legacy). IF (and I say if), there is to be some sort of split, one of the categories NEEDS to be put into the Misc. area.

I would like to say that Rapid said very cleanly the things I would have wanted to say. A few points:

-I don't think that "showing off as much of the game" as possible is too broad. I would like to show off as much of the game as possible without invalidating past runs. That's the idea that I'm going for (and that's what we have been doing for the last 2 years or so).

-"I think we can all agree that the game developers weren't idiots..." I'm not so sure 😛

To respond to Cransoon:

The seashells are not the only thing to disappear after certain conditions. Photos are miss-able if you don't get them in time. In effect, those photos "disappear".
I have more to this argument, but I have to go 😱

-BRB

 
  CransoonCransoon

@Zorlax:
The thing is, at this point, the current 100% category is trying to balance between the midsets of "showing off a lot" and "going as fast as possible", and as a result, I don't think people of either mindset is really getting what they want. I think splitting the categories would just solve it once and for all, so we don't have these kind of conflicts on the fundamental purpose of a category. We'd have a well defined set of objective rules for each category, so we can avoid this kind of confusion in the future.

Also, I think "showing off as much of the game" is too broad within the context of the current 100%. "But you're not showing 6 of the seashells." "But you're not getting dungeon items." "But you're skipping the villa and parts of the trading sequence" etc.

Again, a category split will solve all of these issues very painlessly. And tbh, 100% hasn't really had a healthy number of people running it regularly in years. It's not like we're going to split the community playing it, since I wanna say Swordless is legitimately the only person who runs it more than once every few months. We're just going to give people the option to play the way they want to, without having to compromise for the other people.

Also, for the photos, my judgement usually defers to inventory screen during the Dethyl fight. If you miss the photos, it will specifically say 10/12, or something. The seashells aren't there. From that perspective, they're very different.

Edit: I know the heart piece logic doesn't jive with this test as well, but this is assuming that there's nothing left on the overworld for you to collect, in terms of photos, heart pieces, or seashells.

 
  FlynnFlynn

Maybe Cransoon will notice me /swoon

 
  ZorlaxSevenZorlaxSeven

You can also glitch to get certain photos, then the opportunity for the photo disappears. We don't allow for that either.

And creating new categories is a great idea in theory, but doesn't really hold up. If we had a category split for every new development / disagreement we have LADX, we'd have like 30 categories. No S&Q w/ deathwarp, No S&Q with No SJ's, No S&Q SJ's no Bomb Glitch, No S&Q Return Bowwow, etc. It seems like it would make more people happy, but in reality, it just separates people more. Then other people who watch the speedrun have no clue what they watch and why some people do some route that is 90% similar to another and so on.

Believe me, I have been on the unhappy side of MANY rulings in LADX; It sucks, but if everyone is on the same page, it's better. (Like, I still run No S&Q, No SJ, No Bomb glitch, but I do that as a personal thing. No one else needs to be related to it).

 
  CransoonCransoon

I think the primary difference here is that we're not really talking about an individual trick or glitch, at this point. We're talking about the fundamental philosophy of what the category is supposed to represent, and what the definition of 100% is.

To me, it's like the difference between any% No S+Q and any% S+Q. Some people just don't like the PoP route, and/or the fact that it's an inherently slower run, so a new category was made. When I first started running, I'm pretty sure any% S+Q was exclusive to OG, just like Japanese version was (one of my motivating factors to going over to 100% was the fact that S+Q was allowed). But it got to the point where people were tired of the restrictions, and it got its own category in DX. What if they'd decided splitting any% into 2 categories was a bad idea? I view this situation as much more similar to that discussion than to something like No SJ's%

Also, its like I said in my last post, who are we really separating? Who here besides Swordless would CURRENTLY consider 100% to be their main category? Hell, who's even done more than a couple 100% fun runs in the last couple months, before the new tech was found? My guess is maybe 1 or 2? Not enough that I think we can justifiably say we're separating or splitting any significant portion of the community. As much as it pains me to say it, because it's still my favorite category, most people run 100% as a fun distraction to the any% grind, and nothing more. New people will likely go where the most runners are running, which has never been, and likely will never be 100%
Either that, or they'll do what the person who they first saw running the game is doing. In which case, categories won't matter, because they're just copying what they saw.

 
  ZorlaxSevenZorlaxSeven

I was doing SERIOUS 100% runs before I was accepted into Californithon for No S&Q, and I always take 100% seriously. It's my favorite (real) category.

 
  CransoonCransoon

Yes, and I wasn't trying to imply that you, individually, don't take it seriously (apologies if it came off that way). More saying that, when compared to the number of people in any%, there really aren't many people to split up in the first place, and from the sounds of the difference in philosophy, people are already pretty split, as it is.

To the best of my knowledge, once I go back to 100%, there will be 3 people primarily running 100% (Swordless, myself, and you). Swordless and I will likely be seashell duping, regardless of the verdict here. Imo, banning duping and moving on will be significantly more confusing than adding a category, because most of the 100% runners won't be following the rules of the category.

I guess I just don't really see the downside to it, at this point. The 100% community is too small to be "fractured" by it. Only 2 runs on the leaderboards were submitted less than 8 months ago, and the difference between 1st and 2nd place is the largest of any category outside of Legacy% at ~6 minutes. It allows us to each run the category the way we want to, while avoiding the sticky territory of retroactively adding restrictions. Win-Win, imo

 
  GreenTunicGreenTunic

"I was doing SERIOUS 100% runs before I was accepted into Californithon for No S&Q, and I always take 100% seriously. It's my favorite (real) category."

ZorlaxSeven - Last Wednesday at 6:26 PM
"Hundo is a non-serious category. (What's the difference between no. 1 and no. 2 now? 6+ minutes?) No matter how cool it is. And we're not saying that OoT hundo is the archetype for our 100%; I was saying that ZFG's logic about having "the spirit of the category" has relevance here.
The rules were decided a long time ago through SDA, if I recall.
The best description of the rules is on ZSR. There, however, is no documentation about HeartPiece duping, which was kinda (a little) decided on.
And don't get me wrong, behind the meme category that is Zorlax%, 100% is my favourite category. But that doesn't make it a "serious" one."

I'm so confused lol

 
  ZorlaxSevenZorlaxSeven

Context:

-100% is my favorite category. I treat it seriously. (I could have done it like All Instruments and get the WR and just stop completely. Instead, I struggled, grinded, and fought to get the first 1:32, 1:27, 1:25, and will continue to struggle to get the 1:24/1:23)

-It is not seen / perceived as "serious" by the general populous. (Given the fact that there are so few runs of it, and the times between these runs are large).

Notice that I mention Zorlax% (No S&Q, without Super Jumps or Bomb Glitches), probably the category I've taken the most seriously. Is it a serious category? No. Do I take it seriously? Yes. Do I take it a little too seriously? Probably.

So yes. I can take a run / category seriously without it being a "serious" category.

Oh GT... I think we both knew what I meant when I said that.

 
  GreenTunicGreenTunic

Well I don't think the fact that a few people have done Hundo runs means that all the rest don't consider it a serious category. They might just not have learned it yet or maybe they prefer watching it to running it.

Just seemed weird that I was explaining how 100% was serious the other day and you kept me shooting me down saying it wasn't and now you say it is lol

 
  SurrealGuySurrealGuy

A category split could be the best choice, imo.
Maybe just ban the bomb glitch (100%, no Bomb glitch) in one of the categories. That way we can show off the most we can in that 100% category (full trade sequence and collecting 20 or 26 Seashells). The other one allow every bomb glitch (most notably early Bra & Seashell dupes --> this run will likely also incooperate the early Hookshot glitch). So both 100% runs are fairly different from each other.

 
  [user deleted]

Disclaimer: I don't run this game although it is on my follow list for games to eventually get around to (I grew up with this game lol) so take this with a grain of salt.

I can agree with most of the points brought up here:

- Although none of the catergories goes to Kanalet Castle, I believe the statement of "showing off much of the game as possible" is still valid.

- As for the duping, I can agree that it can be argued with if allowed as I would be one of those people to ask "Why can't we dupe seashells if we can't dupe heart pieces?" but at the same time, I don't see why it can't be allowed since from what I gather, they go away once you get the L2 Sword. It can be argued that if it's allowed, duping cuts a good amount of time from the run and could invalidate older runs that didn't abuse this glitch. For this, I also say that there should be two seperate categories for this so people can run what they please.

- As for 100%, if everything isn't being collected, is it really 100%? 100% to me means collecting everything and completing every side activity.

~ Token

 
  CransoonCransoon

For the record, if the issue is that leaving the category that allows SS duping as 100% would be frustrating, because you (ubiquitous you) don't consider it 100%, I'd be fine with renaming current 100% to "All Upgrades" or something, and having the 26 seashell, etc. route become 100%. The 101% suggestion was just a spitball idea, and I don't really care about category names, so much as having some amount of clarity/consensus for the purpose of individual categories.

This probably doesn't have much, if any impact on the conversation, but I figured I'd throw it out there as an idea. I just want to try and find a way where everybody can be happy. 😛

 
  Warr90Warr90

True 100%

• All Photos.
• 20-26 Shells - L2 Sword
• L2 Shield
• All Trade Items [Non Skipped]
• All Beaks,Compasses and Maps
• All upgrades Powder,Bombs & Arrows
• Blue/Red Tunic
• Return Bow-wow
• No Villa Skip [Collect the 5 Leafs]
• All Songs
• Rooster? - Still a follower and a part of main game?
• Even read the book for different maze pattern??

You can still super jump and bomb trigger but make sure these are collected?

100% Major Glitches

• Dupe Heart Pieces Allowed [Even D7 bomb trigger for 2 bosses making 2 heart pieces]
• Dupe Shells Allowed
• Skip Rooster?
• All Photos
• All Songs
• All upgrades Powder,Bombs & Arrows
• Beaks,Compasses&Maps can be skipped
• Trade sequence can be broken
Dog House?? Might really break this though

---------------
Personally I'd like to see more LADX category's even stupid meme misc categories like L2 Sword [Master Sword] style run. Short and sweet.

100% is a great run to watch I think instead of banning this and banning that we could expand on what we already have.

but what would I know, I'm just a kid 🙂

LinkorangeLinkorange, ChotoTheBrightChotoTheBright and 2 others like this. 
  CransoonCransoon

I like that idea, although I would still say that an "All Upgrades" category should still exist, in that case. The initial controversy started because different people were using 2 different rule sets to define 100%. The 100% Major Glitches would break both of those rule sets (specifically with allowing WW, and allowing HP duping to replace the of gathering individual HPs).

In terms of creating new categories, the biggest pitfall would be to make the differences between them significant enough to matter. In that way, I think the proposed 100% Major Glitches would need to allow doghouse, because otherwise it would just be too similar to the proposed All Upgrades (aka literally the same, but it allows HP duping).

/End of theoretical post that assumes people are ok with adding categories, lol

Warr90Warr90 likes this. 
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